Why Your Healthcare is so Expensive

Good food for thought here. They should foot some of the costs and become part of our paying system. And, I would also like to point out other costs factors, like out exorbitant pharmaceutical pricing as well as other questionable practices that lawyers have set up for their own benefit, like pain medications and the phenomena surrounding them.

MF wrote:

A large part of the cost of pharmaceuticals is because we allow advertising of them in the U.S., one of only two countries that permit that! Then of course is that hugely ineffective FDA process required for approval. Trial lawyers were nailed a few years back, but of course the insurance industry didn't adjust their premiums at all! Go fucking figure. It all adds up to the cost which of course is then passed through to the consumer. I believe this also part of simply spreading the wealth around!

I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Healthcare costs have been rising for decades. There are a number of problems with having a for-profit healthcare system. The beuracracy adds to the cost. Frivolous lawsuits, sure, but also defendents in legitimate suits who fight tooth and nail, bogging down the courts in motions to avoid a just settlement -- all of which drive up premiums for healthcare and malpractice insurance. Overpriced drugs and medical facilities. Not enough family doctors, and the ones who do practice general medicine taking on too many patients so the quality of overall care is decidely less than it should be. People who don't have insurance, putting off going to the doctor for regular check-ups until they finally get so sick, it costs more to make them better than it would've cost had they been seeing a doctor all along and couldn've gotten help sooner. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I agree that illegal aliens shouldn't be getting access to healhcare that is often denied natural-born citizens, but they are a very small part of the disaster that is the U.S. Healthcare system.

asterius wrote:

It is a fairly substantial cost actually, take a look at what undocumented (illegals) workers cost just California alone each year in healthcare. Yes it is only part of the cost issue. Wait until we get Universal healthcare and see what that cost us all and then of course there will be the downside of actually receiving services! The reality of it all is that there is no simple solution. Preventative medicine (education) should be emphasized more that would or could have a substantial impact at a local as well as national level.

So sleepy...
http://www.reason.org/news/show/122411.html

MMMMM don't see anything mentioned about border towns about those who live across the border and come into the U.S. to draw welfare, use public services, etc. then go back home just across the boarder

Actually, the post on redblueamerica does talk about that.

I think maybe we should address the disconnect between all of that tax revenue and healthcare.

That distinction is made, but not enforced. Capitalists have decided money is better spent paying for their labor and care than for the enforcement of laws. So, if we are dealing with accepting what is, then lets be accountable for their time spent here like gracious hosts should.

We tolerate so much in our society, especially when our aristocratic overlords ask it of us. Yes, Mr. Rockefeller... Right away Ms. Walton.

You know, I went to a pain center for medication last month. They wanted to get me off vicodins and use me as an experimental bank for newer and more expensive drugs, never mind the fact that I'm not currently insured or working. They put me through 8 god damn drug tests, which I passed, a psychiatric exam, which I also passed, then denied me vicodin. They did bill me 2400 for this however. I turned right around and complained to the consumer protection agency, because, for real pain cases like me, I shouldn't be treated like I'm dealing this stuff on the street.

Then, I got away from these assholes, who the free clinic referred me to, went down the street, and got the refillable prescription that I needed. It's bad enough that a doctor butchered my back back in a 2000 surgery, but now this?

You can say I have a few problems as these guys are more busy making sure they get payed than actually giving quality service. In fact, if they put as much effort into their practices that their billing departments do, we'd all be better off.

MF, get off the Vicodin, it is not cool for your hearing! I said its not cool for your hearing!

Seriously, for chronic back pain such as yours you need to approach your physician about trying Methadone. It does not carry the associated side effect of hearing loss and is as effective if not more as a pain inhibitor.

Pagan wrote:

Right on couldn't agree more!

I believe it only fair to point out that it is the politicians and judiciaries fiduciary obligation to establish and then enforce the "Rule of Law" and not the capitalists role at all. Too often the capitalist is made the scapegoat when the accepted rule of law is not enforced by those who's duty it is to do so.

Here is my take. I believe we have the best health care system in the world. Expensive, Yes, but that is part of having the best health care system. I believe a major portion of our current health care expense is the fact that a large part of our population is growing older. Older people require more care. They also do not want to spend their retirement dollars on health care. So this large part of our population (that will pay less taxes now) push for government health care even though it will destroy the best system.
We also have many breakthroughs that other place do not. How cheap could we make our health care if the only medication available in the country was penicillin? Very cheap but then we wouldn't be the best.

As far as illegals go, I believe it's subjective, speculative and a play on Statistics to claim that "with their off spring they are a positive for the system". I think all the links you posted talked about how much they COST the system with no mention of how they [the actual illegals] are a gain to the system. That being said, I used to be a deport them, deport them, person. Now, I don't care which they do but they have to change things one way or the other. EITHER deport the illegals and enforce our laws OR make them all citizens and subject to our laws including minimum wage laws. Or get rid of Minimum wage laws (FTO of THAT happening) Right now low skilled workers in the US can't get jobs because employers have to follow the laws (including minimum wage and tax laws) when hiring a citizen. They don't when hiring illegals. This keeps the citizen out of a job. That needs to change. Illegals shouldn't receive any services from the government.

W-H-A-T????

Seriously, though. First they manufacture this shit, market it until it goes generic, then they bring on the newer high priced drugs that supposedly are better, when they in fact are just as bad. I go on and off 2 weeks at a time, so its not an issue with me. Its just that the DEA got involved and are now putting pressure on local doctors to not prescribe it, even though there are legit cases like me roaming around. And it cost me 2400 to find that out. Its complete bullshit.

Fuck the DEA and the industry. Fact is that vicodins are still much more cheaper and effective than anything else out there. If not, I invite you to walk a mile in my shoes. The pain is real. AND I've been doing my physical therapy trying to get better. meanwhile, my hearing is just fine.

Thank you, Dr. House

Seriously methadone is a better alternative especially when it comes to chronic pain management. My mother has been on it now for several years for her back pain issues and it provides better relief than Vicodin ever did.

I also had major trauma to my lower back (L4,L5,S1)spent the better part of a year in the hospital and have had three surgical procedures to repair/stabilize it and to regain use of both legs. I am no stranger to chronic pain! I lived for years on Percodan until I decided to end that cycle of relief/addiction. I choose to deal with it without USP pharmaceuticals unless it becomes intolerable - then I medicate appropriately. All back injuries are different and difficult to deal with in varying degrees. I know what it is like to be in excruciating pain and unable to stand, sit or lay flat without tears forming. Try methadone though it is safer in that it has far less side effects and provides pain relief better than vicodin. Aside from that the other suggestion is to keep your weight down so the belly doesn't pull you out of skeletal alignment. Find a good Osteopathic physician (DO) that is into pain management! If you want to try some methadone I would be happy to supply you with a test batch!

On what basis did you determine that US healthcare is the best in the world? The fact that it is prohibitively expensive makes it very difficult for me to accept it as a good system.

The last time the WHO made a ranking of the world's best healthcare systems, the US was ranked a dismal 37th.

In our system everyone gets treated. No one is without health care. If you want to take a chance on the type of care you get from mandatory providers, you can or you can pay for health care and get the quality of care you choose.
A 10 YO study says little about about today's world and WHO is a socialist organization with an agenda, so I believe little of what they put out.

Generally speaking I believe the level of technical expertise is pretty tough to beat here in the states. Health care is costly no question about that, but if I needed surgery or required acute care I would rather receive it here than any other country I have visited. This is not to say other countries don't offer an acceptable standard of care - we have our share of quacks!

As for the WHO - well I will refrain from profanities. Just another socialist organization with their agenda to promote.

The UN I can certainly do without! They are slowly creeping into controlling our country indirectly. If I were King I would withdraw immediately from that organization, serve them with an eviction notice and turn the building into a resort facility! Maybe they should setup their headquarters some place like Somalia!

Just another transnational socialist organization IMO!

As far as technical development and innovation goes, yes, the US is at the bleeding edge of things since research spending is higher than it is in any other developed nation (which is probably the real reason why health care in the US is so expensive, not because of illegal immigrants, even though they obviously don't help at all.)

Now I don't want to get into any long-drawn debate on whether the health care system should be changed in your country, however I think that the excessively high cost of care makes the system unfair on people who aren't eligible for health insurance and with low income and places essential treatments out of reach for many American citizens (we're not talking about illegal immigrants or careless tourists here, but people who are born and bred in America.)
If I'm not mistaken, the United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not guarantee universal coverage. Is the US the only country doing things right?

JoeConti wrote:

I believe you are correct. Now i wouldn't go so far as claiming the rest of the industrialized nations are idiots, but I would have to say that there is a reason many from those nations come to the U.S. for medical care. Mainly it is the availability of services that is behind that phenomena. Many Canadians for example come here because they have to wait too long to receive treatment in many cases. Most social health care systems use a ranking schema to determine to who and when services are provided. This becomes an unfortunate situation say for a person in their autumn years who may need cancer treatment. The resources are typically allocated to those who will have a greater number of productive years (future taxes paid).

There is no perfect system! There is much we could do to improve upon our system aside from implementing a totally social system. It really boils down to cost and who is going to pay for it. Then of course there needs to a reason method of service availability.

I have two close friends that are physicians in Canada, they basically work three or four months a year before they earn the maximum allowed for their specialties. They then stop working and come to the states to vacation and provide vacation relief and earn money here. The Canadians paid for their education entirely but only get the benefit of their services for a short period each year. Kind of a shame IMO. One of then has recently retired (early 50s)with full benefits/pay. He now works in one of the few clinics (Hawaii)outside of Canada that is certified to service Canadians on vacations. He practices as a U.S. physician and of course charges based on U.S. usual and customary fees! So he is able to double dip so to speak, has no limits on his annual income potential. So I really don't want a system like theirs!

One of biggest problems we face here is dealing with outrageous liability insurance fees for the doctors. Our trial lawyers make big bucks filing often (not always) unwarranted suites knowing it will be settled out of court. The insurance companies basically look at it and determine it is cheaper to settle than to go to trial! This is robbery on several levels IMO. Just an example of some of the flaws in our society!

Then having worked in Emergency Rooms here I have seen the uninsured come in because they had a cold or minor injury that should in fact have been taken care of at home or with over the counter medications. They consume huge amount of resources that are costly, but we can't deny them services or turn them away. Often we would have to provide them with taxi fare to get them home!

It certainly is a dilemma at times.

Advertising of medications is another huge issue. Do you get all the commercials on your TV in Malta for Viagra, etc.? We are inundated with them here! Then of course there are the ads for Tampax, sanitary napkins and vaginal douches etc. Never do I see an ad for preventative medicine!

America has a lot of pluses be we have plenty of issues - mostly because we as a nation have allowed legislation that took away individual responsibilities and let the government dictate our behaviors! Of course that again is just IMO.

I have never heard of methadone being used for pain before, AO. I'm interested. It's proven and has been on the market. I tend to stay away from newer drugs until they've been out there for awhile and because they are more expensive.

I'd be up for trying some. I've run the gamut (or so I thought), and settled on vicodins years ago as it worked best with my body style and had the least amount of constipation and other side effects, as well as being affordable. I won't go near oxycodone and firmly believe that stuff is from the devil. Its my one vice and its used for lifelong problems that I was born with.

Methadone has been used for chronic pain for many years. It is highly effective and relatively safe - aside from it being somewhat addictive but not nearly as bad as Vicodin or Oxycodone.

Mother swears by it and says if they take it away she would rather just die! She has severe scoliosis among some other spinal issues and it provides her serious relief. I joke with her about having a junkie for a mom! On those rare occasions where I am hurting so bad I need medications I take it too. Works for me in those times of agony! I have a script for it to be used PRN (as needed) I take anywhere from 10mg to 30mg which is actually a low dosage.

Usually I can get by with burning a bowl and a glass of wine to take the edge off. but there are those days when I have picked something up wrong or sneezed without preparing and the spine shuffles like a deck of cards. Then I feel that lower back slam down and the spinal cord pinched, knowing that within an hour I am going to be totally in agony. So i down some Ibuprofen, 30mg methadone, wash them down with a glass of scotch, smoke some herb and lay flat!

You are correct about "everyone gets treated". I will pass on my experience with two state health care programs. In 2003 I broke my Tibia and Fibula in a fight (right leg) The company I worked for did not offer a reasonable health plan ( one that I could afford on my pay ) When I came into the hospital the woman who was working filled out the application for the Oregon health plan while I was in emergency. Several years before this I was on The health plan and at that time Oregon charged a $6.00 monthly premium. One month I was not able to pay this premium, and the succeeding months after this I never received a bill for this six dollars.When I started working at a higher hourly rate I canceled my state insurance because my premium went up to $200.00 ( I started earning about twice the poverty level ). The Health care program that was created to help people like me in just such a situation refused to cover me because I still owed that six dollar premium ( Oregon stopped charging premiums for their health care system in 01, or 02) I now owe over $27,000 to that hospital it is the only black mark on my credit and it screws me every time. I have attempted to contact Oregon Health Plan about this and how totally ridiculous it is that for want of a $6.00 premium that the state wasn't even charging anymore. I have never received any answer or correspondence regarding this issue from anyone at all. I pay my debts and bankruptcy is not an option for me ( my mother keeps telling me it would be best ) I am beside myself with frustration over this.

When I had my surgery and was able to travel I went to stay with my folks in Arizona to heal. I started working and bought a motorcycle ( Ive always had a motorcycle )One evening while traveling from a friends back to my home I had no real choice but to get on a very busy street during Friday rush hour, even though it was twilight I didnt really notice that the car in front of me had no tail lights and in heavy traffic you have to know where every car is as well as which cars may be turning into your lane from drive ways and intersections. While crossing an intersection the vehicle in front of me suddenly slowed to turn into a fast food joint. I had at least 4 car lengths between me and them and if they had working safety equipment I would have seen the brake lights but as it was they didnt and so I didnt. While trying to prevent doing and endo and trying to not get in front of another driver I attempted to go between the vehicle in front of me and the one to my left. All this while traveling at 45 miles an hour. I side swiped the cherokee beside me and caromed into the rear quarter panel of the vehicle in front of me, I crushed my left knee and went down. When I went to the hospital they had already approved me for The arizona state health coverage while I was rushed from the accident to the hospital. It took oregon two weeks to make a decision. We need as a nation to pony up the dough and get a well organized and functioning universal health care system( it is the right thing to do). I am not going to say how we could still stay on the edge of medical tech but I will say that medicines and technology are researched with public funds and yet pharmaceutical companies cite high costs of research as why medicines are getting more and more expensive. its kinda funny how its ok to give multi- billion dollar companies tax money to fund research and to allow them to hold the patents on discoveries made possible by our taxes and then to make a profit off us as well, yet it is unamerican to use those tax dollars to fund health care for those who cannot afford the insurance companies inflated profit driven rates. So should we hand out research grants to companies who should pay for that research out of their profits or use those same tax dollars to insure every american doesnt have to worry about getting sick or having an accident which can very easily push a lower wage worker in to bankruptcy and poverty for life?

This so typifies a prevailing attitude in America today.
Several things about Spacecowboy's post strikes me.
The first is that his attitude seems to be a distaste for government programs based on his experience but yet he advocates more of those programs.

Next he neglects to pay a $6.00! monthly premium and then, it's someone else's fault when he gets a big bill from the hospital. A bill that was caused by his own actions (he got in a fight)

Not learning a lesson from the first incident he chooses not to get insurance AGAIN and again he has a problem. Even though it sounds as of the driver of the car he hit should be paying his bill, if he had insurance he would be covered either way.

So even though the insurance was dirt cheap, he choose not to get it. Yet he feels he should be given the labor of the doctors, nurses, and staff that treated him. Getting a cast, getting surgery, these things don't come out of thin air. They are the labor of some other person. Those people deserve to get paid for their efforts. The person that received those services should pay for them.

So to summarize, yes you received medical care. When you were in the hospital what was more important, you medical care or your credit rating?

How do you know the fight was his fault, Boan? And what about the $6 don't you understand? Its no longer required and was there as window dressing. Now it stands as a legal argument for the State not paying his bill, even though he had successfully applied for the program.

As for not getting insurance again, it may not have been a choice, but rather the financial situation he was in.

It is easy to label yourself as a "free thinker" and criticize from the sidelines, isn't it? Why don't you actually TRY walking a mile in this man's shoes before passing your already known biased judgments?

What he feels what you think is pure speculation here. And we already know the depths of your "speculation". Its not pretty, either.

If he had paid the six dollars as required at the time would his medical bills been paid?

yes.

Who was responsible to pay the six dollars?

MEH....

How do YOU know he started the fight and was responsible for it?

Maybe he didn't, maybe he did. Maybe he could have walked away, maybe not. I don't know on that point you have me. However that small nit pick point really makes no difference in the discussion. He needed medical care (for whatever reason), he got medical care. He would have been covered but neglected to pay $6.00 a month. Now he owes $27,000 to people that patched him up but he thinks someone else should pay.

He stated he never received the bill. Why not just keep going off on this tangent and slander him some more, Boan? Some might call this neglect, I call it unjustified bias.

read my friend....

Here's what you said:

Maybe the personal responsibility of the person's who didn't get the bill to him is in play here. But, you're assuming otherwise. Why don't you try asking next time?

Instead, you come off like the moron that you really are.

Ouch, MF, ouch Boanerges...
OUCH!
Why should a guy lose coverage because of a six-dollar discrepancy? It seems ridiculous to me. I understand playing by the rules, but sometimes shit happens and sometimes social constructs decide to limit the consequences of shit happening. If it seems worthwhile, who does it hurt to look after our neighbors? Damn.

Who was the one responsible for paying the premium?
SpaceCowboy
Who knew that the insurance costs $6 a month?
SpaceCowboy
Who is the one that gets affected if there is no insurance due to non payment?
SpaceCowboy
The fact that he didn't get a bill, (which according to his post only happened after he missed a payment) doesn't matter and your suggesting that it does just further proves my point. It's not rocket science to figure out if you don't pay something you don't get it. Don't pay your cable bill, they cut it off, don't pay the power bill, they cut it off, don't pay your insurance premium, they cut it off. Anything beyond that is an excuse to justify a lack of personal responsibility.

Because the government doesn't want to pay, and will exercise their "personal responsibility" not to do so.

Things would've been more equal if both sides had adequate legal representation here. But, they didn't, so Mr. SpaceCowboy gets blasted for not being responsible.

Sounds fair to me, boan-head.

So doesn't it seem counterintuitive to then advocate a government run universal health care plan?

Either way, Spacecowboy and all of us get the help we need, without this kind of BS.

But, I find this kind of response interesting, to say the least.

It doesn't seem to me that it's merely a six dollar discrepancy. Maybe SpaceCowboy can clear it up. It appears he dropped his coverage after missing the 6 dollar payment. Or maybe later when the premiums went up to $200.00. $200 is still relatively inexpensive for healthcare coverage. While I agree it does seem ridiculous, at some point a person should say "I haven't gotten a bill for my insurance, I better check on that."Then the problem is straightened out AHEAD OF TIME. But since lack of healthcare coverage doesn't IMMEDIATELY affect them in this instant gratification world, most don't bother. Let their cell phone, DirecTV, Internet, or Power get cut off and watch them raise a stink, because it has an IMMEDIATE effect on them. Then when an emergency comes along it's time to whine and cry about how they do not have coverage.

I will also take this time to commend you on the way you seem to be steering your life. From what you have posted you are simplifying, going back to basics if you will. Even though we don't agree sometimes I think this is an honorable thing and something that more people should take a look at.