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Solar Energy Meets Greenies and Big Labor

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AstuteObserver
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Solar Energy Meets Greenies and Big Labor

Now for all you "greenies" who want alternative energy and promote building those monstrosities the Aussies introduced here is a great article on a real attempt to do something about energy.

This is not some pie in the sky dream, but a real story about a real city in California that was attempting to actually do something! Yes, that is right a city in California - you know that far left liberal state that is broke! The same state that Pelosi and Feinstein represent!

This IMO is part of the problem with the liberal thinking crowd - a lot of hoopla but never capable of putting much into action. Whine, sniffle and cry but no real action aside from prevention of forward progress. Their condemnation of capitalism as greedy people who are unwilling to provide a fair share to those who produce not a fucking thing aside from complaints! Where has all the left leaning media been on this story?

By Richard Henry Lee
It was a squirrel, a labor group and an environmental group along with California's tough environmental regulations, which helped kill a hybrid solar power plant project for a Mojave Desert city.

It seemed like a good idea at the time. The City of Victorville prides itself on being a green city. They recently bought a number of hybrid vehicles for their city fleet. And they are located in the Mojave Desert which receives large amounts of sunshine every year.

When California Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger (R), signed legislation that requires a portion of additional electric power generation to be sustainable, the City proposed a hybrid solar electric power plant. The plant would combine a solar thermal powered system along with a natural gas fired system.

After much fanfare at the start, the project began to run into problems during the permitting phase. The California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) imposes a strict review process. The California Energy Commission (CEC) is the state agency that conducts the environmental review.

The first problem was the squirrel, or more specifically, the Mohave ground squirrel, which is considered to be threatened. While the squirrel has never been found at the project site, nor was there any evidence it had ever lived there, it could decide sometime in the future to live there. As a result, the California Department of Fish and Game decided that the squirrel required a mitigation ratio of 3:1. This means that 3 acres of the desert needs to be purchased and set aside for the squirrel for every acre of project site. This increased costs dramatically since there were few parcels available for set aside.

Next was the labor union group called CURE, which is an acronym for California Unions for Reliable Energy. CURE is supported by various construction unions. It has a history of fighting new projects in California unless the applicant agrees to use union labor for the project.

In February 2008, the Sacramento Bee editorialized:

Labor unions are an even larger abuser of CEQA. In recent years, labor groups have used environmental lawsuits, or the threat of such suits, to stop or slow down power plant construction, hospital expansions and housing developments. The unions' lawyers always seem to disappear once a developer has signed an agreement to hire only union labor...

For several years, a group called California Unions for Reliable Energy has used CEQA to slow or block power plants, including a geothermal plant in Imperial County. As it happens, CURE employs a law firm founded by Tom Adams, the current president of the California League of Conservation Voters.

CURE petitioned the CEC to become an intervenor in the review process and it was granted. CURE then began to request a lengthy data request of 152 items about the project. For example, they inquired "whether the City would implement a noxious weed preventive program"

When the CEC finally ruled against the various objections that CURE raised, the labor group then filed suit against the local air quality district in Superior Court which eventually ruled against CURE.

Then the Natural Resources Defense Council gets involved. The City tried to purchase pollution credits from the Los Angeles air basin for the natural gas portion of the plant since there were not enough local credits for purchase. But the NRDC filed suit against the purchase and prevailed. The NRDC bills itself at "The Earth's Best Defense".

The delays and burdensome requirements were costly to the City. For a while they tried to sell the project, but there were no buyers. Finally, the City ran into cash flow problems and could not pay General Electric for the steam turbines for the plant. Right now, GE is seeking to find ways to recover its costs. A couple of weeks ago, GE terminated its contract with the City and demanded immediate payment. According to the Daily Press in Victorville:

Those terms allow GE to keep Victorville's $50 million deposit on the equipment, plus either demand a $108 million termination fee or take control of the Victorville 2 power plant.

The City has few options at this point, but the price tag GE demands could force the City into bankruptcy.

It is possible that the project could still be built if GE decides take control over it, but the stiff environmental conditions would still have to be met.

In addition to these woes, the City is under investigation by a grand jury for financial dealings and S&P has downgraded several City bonds to junk status.

This story about going green in California may be repeated elsewhere in the state under the burdensome California requirements. While Gov. Schwarzenegger restates his commitment to going green, the reality is that the State's regulatory climate discourages green energy.

The unions and the environmental groups purportedly support green projects, but they in fact, often oppose them for environmental reasons. And Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) recently expressed opposition to solar panels in the Mojave Desert which is ideally suited for solar power in the state.

The green energy projects were supposed to create jobs for California workers according to Schwarzenegger. However, while there were jobs created for this project, many of those jobs went to lawyers.

Without these green projects, California may eventually face more blackouts. If it happens, the blame will fall squarely on the green lobby which advocates out of both sides of their collective mouths. They say they want green energy, but they will not support green energy.

The Main Stream Media are also complicit since they have been silent about the Victorville fiasco and similar projects. The only news coverage is in the local newspaper and in trade journals

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Gidget (not verified)
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I am what would be a termed

I am what would be a termed a "liberal" when it comes to many issues, but this is just a complete load of bullcookies!

They have to set aside land for a squirrel (those rats with furry tails that I regularly nail with my BB gun to keep them off my bird feeders) that might someday decide to live there? What the hell is that? I'm all for protecting animals within reason, but hindering construction in an area because a threatened animal may one day come around...that's just the height of sheer stupidity!

As for the Union, CURE, I'll simply say this: Unions, by and large, have become exactly like the orginizations/companies they were originally established to protect employees/people from!

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Quote: This IMO is part of

Quote:
This IMO is part of the problem with the liberal thinking crowd - a lot of hoopla but never capable of putting much into action. Whine, sniffle and cry but no real action aside from prevention of forward progress. Their condemnation of capitalism as greedy people who are unwilling to provide a fair share to those who produce not a fucking thing aside from complaints!

You seem very upset by those liberals, AO. I am sorry about that. Consider that there have been a lot of 'liberal' projects that created infrastructure that you may take for granted every day. Sensible liberals do exist and they just want the 'progress' to benefit many rather than a few. Also consider that those 'liberals' are citizens just like you and their tyranny only goes as far as the majority allows it to go. Unless I am wrong and they have a corner on the market of obstruction and regressive inaction.

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Hear, hear. I, too, am

Hear, hear. I, too, am liberal leaning. As far as I'm concerned, this is sheer extremism that most liberals would shun immediately.

Be careful with that wide brush of yours, AO.

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Fremen

Fremen wrote:

Quote:
Consider that there have been a lot of 'liberal' projects that created infrastructure that you may take for granted every day.

Examples please. One thing to make a claim but to back it up with fact is yet another story!

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MF wrote: Quote: Hear, hear.

MF wrote:

Quote:
Hear, hear. I, too, am liberal leaning. As far as I'm concerned, this is sheer extremism that most liberals would shun immediately.

Be careful with that wide brush of yours, AO

Well lets see how many conservative organizations were participants in stopping this project? None, unless you read something I missed!

Broad brush painting is something I have learned from the liberals! FAlsi claims is yet another - like Obama's claim about creating jobs last night - could you provide data to back that assholes claim up? Then again there is the fact that the hedge funds are being made the scapegoats for Crysler's bankruptcy filing. These funds have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders - like all those people who's 401ks they represent!
Liberals make me puke bile!

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Careful Gidget that BB gun

Careful Gidget that BB gun is a lethal weapon and the current administration wants to remove all weapons! Then of course there is the liberal PETA group that I am sure would have a major disagreement with you and your surgical elimination of squirrels!

Are you a liberal or moderate on some issues? There is a difference you know! I am curious which issues you may feel a liberal orientation towards?

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OK, if you want to talk

OK, if you want to talk about being broke as being a "liberal" issue, let's talk. Both sides have fucked up royally.

What you are doing is cherry picking, AO. Anyone can do that. This is a fucked up situation. I have no issues with that. So was the war. Either way, you'll look for ways to blame one over another, even if both are responsible. That won't fix anything, except your excessive need for the drama highway to nowhere.

And that's where this thread is headed. One Finger Salute!

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Gidget (not verified)
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AstuteObserver

AstuteObserver wrote:
Careful Gidget that BB gun is a lethal weapon and the current administration wants to remove all weapons! Then of course there is the liberal PETA group that I am sure would have a major disagreement with you and your surgical elimination of squirrels!

Are you a liberal or moderate on some issues? There is a difference you know! I am curious which issues you may feel a liberal orientation towards?

Let's see, some issues that would have some people labeling me a "Liberal":

I am pro-choice.
I fully support Gay marriage.
I staunchly believe in the separation of Church and State.
I believe that not providing full sex education (as opposed to "abstenience only") does a disservice to our youth.
I agree that we need a minimum wage.
I agree that our environment is in trouble.
I think birth control should be easily accessible for all.
I think that social programs, like welfare, are needed, but they need major overhauling.
I believe that government infringment on our civil liberties in the name of security is a recipe for disaster.

But, on the conservative side of the coin:

I am a gun owner and believe that all law-abiding citizens have the right to gun ownership.
I am pro-death penalty
I think the key word in the phrase "illegal Alien" is illegal and they should get the boot right out of the country.

Of course, this is just a few examples. I am neither a true "liberal" nor a true "conservative." Where I fall within the political spectrum depends on the individual issue.

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Gidget wrote:Let's see, some

Gidget wrote:
Let's see, some issues that would have some people labeling me a "Liberal":

I am pro-choice.
I fully support Gay marriage.
I staunchly believe in the separation of Church and State.
I believe that not providing full sex education (as opposed to "abstenience only") does a disservice to our youth.
I agree that we need a minimum wage.
I agree that our environment is in trouble.
I think birth control should be easily accessible for all.
I think that social programs, like welfare, are needed, but they need major overhauling.
I believe that government infringment on our civil liberties in the name of security is a recipe for disaster.

But, on the conservative side of the coin:

I am a gun owner and believe that all law-abiding citizens have the right to gun ownership.
I am pro-death penalty
I think the key word in the phrase "illegal Alien" is illegal and they should get the boot right out of the country.

Of course, this is just a few examples. I am neither a true "liberal" nor a true "conservative." Where I fall within the political spectrum depends on the individual issue.


General Labels are such Bullshit, I see it as nothing but a "Tool" from the Puppet Masters that is used to control "The Herd". All one has to do is read Orwell's master pieces "1984" and "Animal Farm" to really put it into perspective.

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I agree. When we wind up in

I agree. When we wind up in "label land", all true debate is lost and we are all losers. This is where my absolutism label comes in. We all know of my pet peeve here. I am also conservative in many ways and also liberal in many ways. I would like to debate topics based upon their merit, not ideology alone.

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Me it's pretty simple, stay

Me it's pretty simple, stay out of peoples personal lives and beliefs. Unless one's beliefs are directly adversely affecting others it's no ones business, like the saying (forget which Supreme Court Justice it was I quote) -
"Your rights end where my nose begins, My Rights end where yours begins"

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Hey AO, hows does the

Hey AO, hows does the Republican governor play into all this?

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Thomas Jefferson wrote: "A

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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I personally dislike labels

I personally dislike labels as they are so confining. My personal orientation is more situational than anything.

I am Pro-Choice, although personally I am not in favor of abortion except in certain situations (rape, incest, etc.) I do take issue with my tax dollars being spent to remedy the lack personal responsibility. It becomes a matter of choice and so I require the individual to assume the cost.

I support civil unions between any gender combination. That again is a individual choice for the parties to make. I prefer leaving the label "marriage" as it has been defined for millennium. After all at the heart of the issue are legal issues - civil unions provide a reasonable legal remedy to those issues IMO.

Separation of Church and State as defined originally in the constitution works just fine for me. Start messing with it and you end up with inequities. i.e., outlawing christian prayer but then providing a room for Muslim prayer in some of the schools. That form of political correctness simply isn't fair to anyone!

Sex education outside of the teaching of biological functions should be left to the families. As soon as you make it part of a curriculum for social behavior conflicts arise and I simply don't believe the state should be involved or the one to set the standards. Hell they certainly haven't done a stellar job teaching mathematics, composition or even geography recently! Hell Obama was quoted saying we have 57 states - so much for free public education (it may have been the teleprompter was not working)! Eye-wink

We have a minimum wage - that doesn't necessarily make it livable! Let the workers decide what is fair by bargaining or simply not fill the positions. That is known as a "free market"! Impose a minimum wage and that is exactly what the worker will be paid! Government interference simply doesn't work IMO.

The environment is in deed threatened in many instances, we all need to do our part to ensure its preservation. This should be based on factual scientific data and not the politics of emotionalism or extremists.

Birth control is readily available, but I believe that minors access should be decided by the family unit and not government.

Welfare we have and in fact it was greatly overhauled during the Clinton era. The abuse was greatly reduced, many recipients in fact learned that they could be productive and have some pride. That unfortunately has been reversed lately and I suspect all in an attempt to garner votes! Now is not the time to weaken a system when so many legitimate citizens need assistance through no fault of their own.

Gun ownership is a constitutional right and should not be reduced or eliminated! I own several myself and have never used them illegally or irresponsibly. Cars kill more people than guns annually and I don't advocate outlawing them either!

The death penalty is fine with me, although there isn't much data indicating it is much of a deterrent for violent crime.

I am all over the illegals being forced out. We need a guest worker program to meet the needs of industry. A blanket policy of Amnesty I am not in favor of, it is a direct insult to legal immigration and rewards people who break the law. Go home and apply accordingly tehn come back based on our national needs. If you are here illegally you should not be entitled to free education, healthcare etc. Those are benefits for legal citizens or workers only!

I don't see any of these issues being liberal or conservative only, the policies attached to them are another story.

Smaller government and limiting its intrusion into personal lives and behaviors is what I can get behind. Big government will benefit nobody in the long term.

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AO you've pretty much nailed

AO you've pretty much nailed my beliefs also except for one you support which I staunchly oppose, the Death Penalty. Simply put until the legal system is perfect I will not support a system that executes innocent people. Read a bit about it and you'll see that we have put innocent people to death. Do a google on Joyce Gilchrist for example, this fucking cunt has not payed for her crimes because due to the law she cannot be held accountable for those she has sent to death.

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I hear what you are saying

I hear what you are saying Pagan. I am however not in favor of taking it off the table as an option for punishment. I don't believe it is a deterrent and there is certainly room for error in applying it, yet given the current art of forensics with DNA mapping etc., these errors can be reduced if not eliminated. The appeal process as well should provide ample opportunity to correct most if not all errors in convicting someone. I think in certain cases like mass murders, serial killers and pedophilia cases where the child is murdered it is more humane than 30 years or more in a cell with a warm bed and three squares a day.
Of course in a perfect world it would not even be a consideration! I just happen to be a believer in the eye for an eye approach to justice.

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AO's alter-ego Evil AO

AO's alter-ego Evil AO wrote:
I personally dislike labels as they are so confining...

Why then the 'Liberal' remarks? I'd like to hear more from the real AO, please. Smoke a bowl, hire an escort, whatever it takes to calm Mr. Hyde. Eye-wink

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Ruh-Roh......

Ruh-Roh......

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I'm not one of "Those

I'm not one of "Those Meddling Kids" No, No, No!
I'm harmless Rolling on the floor laughing

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AstuteObserver wrote:I hear

AstuteObserver wrote:
I hear what you are saying Pagan. I am however not in favor of taking it off the table as an option for punishment. I don't believe it is a deterrent and there is certainly room for error in applying it, yet given the current art of forensics with DNA mapping etc., these errors can be reduced if not eliminated. The appeal process as well should provide ample opportunity to correct most if not all errors in convicting someone. I think in certain cases like mass murders, serial killers and pedophilia cases where the child is murdered it is more humane than 30 years or more in a cell with a warm bed and three squares a day.
Of course in a perfect world it would not even be a consideration! I just happen to be a believer in the eye for an eye approach to justice.

Well that would be fine if the Judicial System was perfect, but unfortunately it's not and I will not condone killing innocent people. There's a simple solution, life without parole. Then if it is found that they are innocent they can be released, death is final. Besides, if they're guilty why give them an easy way out, let them rot in prison.

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AstuteObserver wrote: I am

AstuteObserver wrote:

I am Pro-Choice, although personally I am not in favor of abortion except in certain situations (rape, incest, etc.) I do take issue with my tax dollars being spent to remedy the lack personal responsibility. It becomes a matter of choice and so I require the individual to assume the cost.

I hate that some use abortion as a form of birth control, but I would never agree that it should be limited to cases of rape or incest (not that you are suggesting limiting it). As for funding, I look at it this way: I would much prefer my tax dollars be spent helping to educate people on family planning, and yes, help cover the cost of an abortion, then have it spent supporting a child the person didn't want in the first place, and barely takes care of, for 18 years.

Quote:
I support civil unions between any gender combination. That again is a individual choice for the parties to make. I prefer leaving the label "marriage" as it has been defined for millennium. After all at the heart of the issue are legal issues - civil unions provide a reasonable legal remedy to those issues IMO.

I think the government needs to get out of the "marriage" business completely; all legal "marriages" should be termed "civil unions," regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple involved. Then if a couple chooses to have a "marriage ceremony" they can do so through whatever Church/place of worship they choose. Have the states all issue "civil union licenses" to everyone with the same legal rights a "marriage license" now confers to a heterosexual couple, and put the issue to rest.

Quote:
Separation of Church and State as defined originally in the constitution works just fine for me. Start messing with it and you end up with inequities. i.e., outlawing christian prayer but then providing a room for Muslim prayer in some of the schools. That form of political correctness simply isn't fair to anyone!

I agree, but at the same time I think the so-called "war on Christianity" is a load of bullcookies. Christian prayer has never been outlawed or banned from public schools. Students always have been and still are free to pray in public schools alone or in groups, as long as their prayers don’t disrupt the school or interfere with the rights of others. The only thing that has been "outlawed" is a teacher or school led prayers (of ANY faith).

As for the cases involving those of the Muslim faith being given a place to pray, I have never read a single case where a Christian student has made the same request and been denied. If you have one I'd love to read it.

Quote:
Sex education outside of the teaching of biological functions should be left to the families. As soon as you make it part of a curriculum for social behavior conflicts arise and I simply don't believe the state should be involved or the one to set the standards. Hell they certainly haven't done a stellar job teaching mathematics, composition or even geography recently! Hell Obama was quoted saying we have 57 states - so much for free public education (it may have been the teleprompter was not working)! Eye-wink

I certainly agree that our public schools are sorely lacking and our educational system, as a whole, needs major fixing, but I still feel that basic sex education (including birth control methods, possible diseases, and yes, the benefits of abstenience) should be a part of the ciriculum. It's just too important of a subject, given the fact that sex these days can kill you, to just hope that a student's parents will give them the facts.

Quote:
We have a minimum wage - that doesn't necessarily make it livable! Let the workers decide what is fair by bargaining or simply not fill the positions. That is known as a "free market"! Impose a minimum wage and that is exactly what the worker will be paid! Government interference simply doesn't work IMO.

I have to disagree. Without imposing a minimum standard companies would take advantage especially in areas where employment of any kind is hard to come by.

Quote:
The environment is in deed threatened in many instances, we all need to do our part to ensure its preservation. This should be based on factual scientific data and not the politics of emotionalism or extremists.

Agreed. Your example in the first post in this thread perfectly illustrates the absurdity of the extremists.

Quote:
Birth control is readily available, but I believe that minors access should be decided by the family unit and not government.

In a perfect world minors wouldn't be having sex and if they did they would be able to openly discuss it with their parents, but this isn't a perfect world and I much rather Johnny or Mary Jane have access to condoms or BC pills then have them risk STDs or unwanted pregnancies.

Quote:
Welfare we have and in fact it was greatly overhauled during the Clinton era. The abuse was greatly reduced, many recipients in fact learned that they could be productive and have some pride. That unfortunately has been reversed lately and I suspect all in an attempt to garner votes! Now is not the time to weaken a system when so many legitimate citizens need assistance through no fault of their own.

I wouldn't say weaken the system, but close the loopholes that foster the abuse of the system.

Quote:
Gun ownership is a constitutional right and should not be reduced or eliminated! I own several myself and have never used them illegally or irresponsibly. Cars kill more people than guns annually and I don't advocate outlawing them either!

We are in complete agreement in this...although I guess some would claim that nailing a squirrel in the butt with a BB (not killing them) isn't humane and I'm a big old monster for doing so! Rolling on the floor laughing

Quote:
The death penalty is fine with me, although there isn't much data indicating it is much of a deterrent for violent crime.

Frankly, I think it isn't much of a deterrent simply because people can get the death penalty but it isn't carried out for years (if ever0. I say if there is DNA/Forensic evidence..they get one appeal..after that they're SOL.

Quote:
I am all over the illegals being forced out. We need a guest worker program to meet the needs of industry. A blanket policy of Amnesty I am not in favor of, it is a direct insult to legal immigration and rewards people who break the law. Go home and apply accordingly tehn come back based on our national needs. If you are here illegally you should not be entitled to free education, healthcare etc. Those are benefits for legal citizens or workers only!

Again we completely agree. I am all for legal immigration, but if you're here illegally you should be deported, plain and simple. Make it easier for people to come here legally, but don't reward those who are breaking the law.

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Gidget wrote:I hate that some

Gidget wrote:
I hate that some use abortion as a form of birth control, but I would never agree that it should be limited to cases of rape or incest (not that you are suggesting limiting it). As for funding, I look at it this way: I would much prefer my tax dollars be spent helping to educate people on family planning, and yes, help cover the cost of an abortion, then have it spent supporting a child the person didn't want in the first place, and barely takes care of, for 18 years.

As offensive as I find those who use abortion as a form of Birth Control is it still is a choice between a Doctor and a woman. There will always be those who abuse anything and everything, but the solution is not have Government dictating it. Government does not belong in it at all, neither supporting nor restricting it period. It's a very personal choice that is between the person and their Doctor.

Gidget wrote:
I think the government needs to get out of the "marriage" business completely; all legal "marriages" should be termed "civil unions," regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple involved. Then if a couple chooses to have a "marriage ceremony" they can do so through whatever Church/place of worship they choose. Have the states all issue "civil union licenses" to everyone with the same legal rights a "marriage license" now confers to a heterosexual couple, and put the issue to rest.

Government shouldn't even be involved in "civil union", why the fuck to you need to have a license to spend your life and love the one you choose?


Gidget wrote:
I agree, but at the same time I think the so-called "war on Christianity" is a load of bullcookies. Christian prayer has never been outlawed or banned from public schools. Students always have been and still are free to pray in public schools alone or in groups, as long as their prayers don’t disrupt the school or interfere with the rights of others. The only thing that has been "outlawed" is a teacher or school led prayers (of ANY faith).

As for the cases involving those of the Muslim faith being given a place to pray, I have never read a single case where a Christian student has made the same request and been denied. If you have one I'd love to read it.


Agreed, those that scream "war on Christianity" are just creating an excuse to push their religious beliefs on everyone else. Religion belongs in the home period, don't use my tax's to push your theology.

Gidget wrote:
I certainly agree that our public schools are sorely lacking and our educational system, as a whole, needs major fixing, but I still feel that basic sex education (including birth control methods, possible diseases, and yes, the benefits of abstenience) should be a part of the ciriculum. It's just too important of a subject, given the fact that sex these days can kill you, to just hope that a student's parents will give them the facts.

Public Schools have turned into Social Engineering pushing what ever "Fad" is Popular for the moment. There is also a lot of waste, fraud and abuse with the funds. Public Schools need to be audited, kick out the waste that bloats middle management. Then when that is done the budget needs to be increased, Education all the way through State Universities need to be free for legal Citizens. An Educated population is the basis for a prosperous and successful Society as a whole

.

Gidget wrote:
I have to disagree. Without imposing a minimum standard companies would take advantage especially in areas where employment of any kind is hard to come by.

I disagree with that, minimum wages do nothing but raise the prices of goods and services. The jobs that pay minimum wages are not ment to be a "career", it's ment to be an introduction to the work force to build your resume filled by people like teenagers and students. All the hype of "minumum wage" is nothing but a Red Herring used by Whore Politicians.

Gidget wrote:
Agreed. Your example in the first post in this thread perfectly illustrates the absurdity of the extremists.

I can't argue with this

Gidget wrote:
In a perfect world minors wouldn't be having sex and if they did they would be able to openly discuss it with their parents, but this isn't a perfect world and I much rather Johnny or Mary Jane have access to condoms or BC pills then have them risk STDs or unwanted pregnancies.

It's a family decision, neither government nor anyone else has any business with sticking their nose into how a person raises their kids unless there is proof of abuse period. Families raise children, not the fucking State.

Gidget wrote:
I wouldn't say weaken the system, but close the loopholes that foster the abuse of the system.

Yep, welfare is a temp "safety net". The biggest offenders of Welfare are the people who administer it along with Corporate sucking off the Government tit. In all honesty though the U.S. doesn't have poverty, spend some time outside of the Country and you'll see what poverty actually is. Someone bitching about not having money for Cable TV isn't what I call living in poverty Eye-wink

Gidget wrote:
We are in complete agreement in this...although I guess some would claim that nailing a squirrel in the butt with a BB (not killing them) isn't humane and I'm a big old monster for doing so! Rolling on the floor laughing

2nd Amendment, the American people need to stand up and demand Government abides by the rule of law. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and all government does is wipe their ass with it. I'm frankly surprised there are no riots in the streets demanding accountability to the rule of law by government and the Judicial System.

Gidget wrote:
Frankly, I think it isn't much of a deterrent simply because people can get the death penalty but it isn't carried out for years (if ever0. I say if there is DNA/Forensic evidence..they get one appeal..after that they're SOL.

I couldn't disagree more, look up Joyce Gilchrist. She falsified DNA evidence and sent numerous people to death, I will never sanction killing innocent people. Let the guilty rot in jail with zero chances of getting out.

Gidget wrote:
Again we completely agree. I am all for legal immigration, but if you're here illegally you should be deported, plain and simple. Make it easier for people to come here legally, but don't reward those who are breaking the law.

Why a guest worker program? There's a shit load of people living on welfare, if you want/need government assistance you should work for it.

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Mysandrist Fool
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Quote: As offensive as I find

Quote:
As offensive as I find those who use abortion as a form of Birth Control is it still is a choice between a Doctor and a woman. There will always be those who abuse anything and everything, but the solution is not have Government dictating it. Government does not belong in it at all, neither supporting nor restricting it period. It's a very personal choice that is between the person and their Doctor.

I agree. And "saving a life" is over rated. Once that life is "saved", those who "saved" it wash their hands and walk away. The "saved" child then winds up being kicked around foster home after foster home or living a life with a single
parent. Both are recipes for trouble and cost society more in the long run.

Quote:
Gidget wrote:

I think the government needs to get out of the "marriage" business completely; all legal "marriages" should be termed "civil unions," regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple involved. Then if a couple chooses to have a "marriage ceremony" they can do so through whatever Church/place of worship they choose. Have the states all issue "civil union licenses" to everyone with the same legal rights a "marriage license" now confers to a heterosexual couple, and put the issue to rest.


Best idea I've heard to this day on this topic.

Quote:
Gidget wrote:

I agree, but at the same time I think the so-called "war on Christianity" is a load of bullcookies. Christian prayer has never been outlawed or banned from public schools. Students always have been and still are free to pray in public schools alone or in groups, as long as their prayers don’t disrupt the school or interfere with the rights of others. The only thing that has been "outlawed" is a teacher or school led prayers (of ANY faith).

As for the cases involving those of the Muslim faith being given a place to pray, I have never read a single case where a Christian student has made the same request and been denied. If you have one I'd love to read it.


I'm sorry, but why this is even a priority is a prime example of people taking their religion way too seriously.

Quote:
Public Schools have turned into Social Engineering pushing what ever "Fad" is Popular for the moment. There is also a lot of waste, fraud and abuse with the funds. Public Schools need to be audited, kick out the waste that bloats middle management. Then when that is done the budget needs to be increased, Education all the way through State Universities need to be free for legal Citizens. An Educated population is the basis for a prosperous and successful Society as a whole

Agreed. Things like TitleIX have gotten way out of control. Just teach and take any bias out of anything. If a boy wants to enter a home-ed class, let him. If a girl wants to try out for the football team, let her. It's that simple.

Quote:
I disagree with that, minimum wages do nothing but raise the prices of goods and services. The jobs that pay minimum wages are not ment to be a "career", it's ment to be an introduction to the work force to build your resume filled by people like teenagers and students. All the hype of "minumum wage" is nothing but a Red Herring used by Whore Politicians.

I'm torn on this one as I understand both sides of the issue here. I would tend to side in favor of the minimum wage simply because it is not the sole factor for prices rising. McDonald's hamburgers are a good example of this. They are a minimum wage facility and their prices are still reasonable. I see this type of argument used here for publicity MORESO than pricing.

Quote:
Birth control is readily available, but I believe that minors access should be decided by the family unit and not government.

Or religious lobbies that control government programs. Shit happens. If we just let the chips lay where they fall on this issue, we would still have far less issues than what the government has done with their reactive legislation in regards to this.

Quote:
I wouldn't say weaken the system, but close the loopholes that foster the abuse of the system.

Either that or have programs that put them to work and teach skill sets at the same time they are getting taken care of. What's wrong with that? It could be part of the new "volunteer" program. I know that I'll get some responses on this one!

Quote:
2nd Amendment, the American people need to stand up and demand Government abides by the rule of law. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and all government does is wipe their ass with it. I'm frankly surprised there are no riots in the streets demanding accountability to the rule of law by government and the Judicial System.

As much as I hate guns, I couldn't agree with you more here, albeit for different reasons. Its more than time for US citizenry to stand up and fight against the oppression that exists in today's government. If it takes the 2nd amendment to accomplish this, so be it. Hopefully, other issues will come to light here BESIDES the 2nd amendment.

Quote:
Gidget wrote:

Frankly, I think it isn't much of a deterrent simply because people can get the death penalty but it isn't carried out for years (if ever0. I say if there is DNA/Forensic evidence..they get one appeal..after that they're SOL.

I couldn't disagree more, look up Joyce Gilchrist. She falsified DNA evidence and sent numerous people to death, I will never sanction killing innocent people. Let the guilty rot in jail with zero chances of getting out.


I agree with Pagan here and have seen, witnessed and experienced firsthand what a hellbent prosecution team can do to a targeted individual, despite how innocent they may be. I am sooo-ooo against the death penalty as it also represents hatred as a punishment. People get killed. And to kill again just to satisfy the victim doesn't register as any kind of solution that brings anything near a good result here. This isn't about victim's rights. This is about more hatred. And it doesn't work, nor will it ever work.

Quote:
Why a guest worker program? There's a shit load of people living on welfare, if you want/need government assistance you should work for it.

Agreed. Reference my above comment on welfare worker programs. Welfare recipients should have first crack at it, then immigration to follow, or they could choose to compete for real work.

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Mysandrist Fool wrote:Gidget

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
Gidget wrote:
I think the government needs to get out of the "marriage" business completely; all legal "marriages" should be termed "civil unions," regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple involved. Then if a couple chooses to have a "marriage ceremony" they can do so through whatever Church/place of worship they choose. Have the states all issue "civil union licenses" to everyone with the same legal rights a "marriage license" now confers to a heterosexual couple, and put the issue to rest.

Best idea I've heard to this day on this topic.

Again, I disagree .... Government has no business WHAT SO EVER licensing a personal and intimate relationship. Not to mention it's a direct violation of the 14th Amendment

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
I'm torn on this one as I understand both sides of the issue here. I would tend to side in favor of the minimum wage simply because it is not the sole factor for prices rising. McDonald's hamburgers are a good example of this. They are a minimum wage facility and their prices are still reasonable. I see this type of argument used here for publicity MORESO than pricing.

If you call McDonalds "Food" Eye-wink Puke

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Quote: Again, I disagree ....

Quote:
Again, I disagree .... Government has no business WHAT SO EVER licensing a personal and intimate relationship. Not to mention it's a direct violation of the 14th Amendment

I know that you do and would never contend otherwise. I would be willing to compromise here on this one issue. It seems like a good all around compromise here and would be much better than what we currently have in place today.

Quote:
If you call McDonalds "Food" Eye-wink Puke

It was the example you were supposed to pay attention to there. But, I'll gladly concede if it can get you to move forward here! Eye-wink

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Mysandrist Fool wrote:Pagan

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
Pagan wrote:
Again, I disagree .... Government has no business WHAT SO EVER licensing a personal and intimate relationship. Not to mention it's a direct violation of the 14th Amendment

I know that you do and would never contend otherwise. I would be willing to compromise here on this one issue. It seems like a good all around compromise here and would be much better than what we currently have in place today.


Actually I won't compromise, why? What good are laws when we allow government unaccountable to the rule of law?

Mysandrist Fool wrote:
Pagan wrote:
If you call McDonalds "Food" Eye-wink Puke

It was the example you were supposed to pay attention to there. But, I'll gladly concede if it can get you to move forward here! ;)

It's a joke dude Eye-wink

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Sorry, bud. Not in a good

Sorry, bud. Not in a good mood tonight. I've got enough battles to fight.... Sad

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Re: Solar Energy Meets Greenies and Big Labor

I think that when we discuss the prospects of using the solar energy to the purpose of the society needs, we must not believe in the  fairy tales. We should concentrate on all aspects of the using of this energy. We mustn't make the same mistakes which had been  taking  place with  the energy from coal or from oil.

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Re: Solar Energy Meets Greenies and Big Labor

vlada wrote:

I think that when we discuss the prospects of using the solar energy to the purpose of the society needs, we must not believe in the  fairy tales. We should concentrate on all aspects of the using of this energy. We mustn't make the same mistakes which had been  taking  place with  the energy from coal or from oil.


Yes we should not consider it for making electricity, heating your home, propelling your car, plastics, ashphalt for the roads and the list goes on. Why would we ever abuse oil and coal in such a fashion. It is about finding a balance - solar simply will not and cannot meet the demands humans have for comfort!
How about we use the proven technology of the atom!
These "absolutist" greenies make me puke!

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