Separation of Church and State

Religion backed by public funding is forbidden out of respect for religion itself.  The only way to protect ones right to religion is to insure public funds are not used period so all religions may be respected.

You want religious shit in school, go to a private school, problem solved.  You want your religious ceremonies, go to Church.

Problem is, if you teach Christianity, then the Jews get pissed. Teach Judaism and Christianity, the Muslims get pissed. Teach all Abrahamic religions, the Hindu's get pissed. Teach about that, the Shintoists get pissed. Toss in Shintoism, we go to school and learn about Jesus, Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, and Izanagi all in one sitting and we get zero work done.

Because schools are publicly funded, you need to find a middle ground, and that middle ground is keeping religion out of school. Also, it stops a massive controversy erupting when you tell a Muslim you didn't know was a Muslim to draw a picture that shows how much he loves Jesus.

As an Atheist, I never prayed in school, nor did I sing hymns, and when I got detention for it once, my parents were furious.

Like Pagan said, private schools cater to all walks of life. If people want religion in schools, then it should be completely optional for students to take part, and no pressure is to be put on them. From the students, or the teachers, or guests to the school.

Okay.  This discussion, I'm not just limiting it to schools.  I'm talking about the contradiction of the first ammendment and the things that happened or are happening.  One good example would be US Senator Joseph McCarthy and is witch hunt on communism back in the 50s, or 40s, I'm not sure.  Another would be the 10 Commandments in the state courthouse.  Those movements on removing public signs depicting Christmas during the holiday.  Requests of Arabs to have a mosque and others refuting it.  On these events, is religion and the state really separated?

Hardly, the constitution isn't really a legal document, so you need to invoke it when the lines are crossed. Most people wont have a problem with the 10 Commandments in places like the courthouse (Not to mention that the most basic legal systems are derived from it), but people would get quite furious if they were expected to pray before I trial.

People who demand Christmas Displays being taken down, they're just being assholes using the law as a weapon, and turning a happy event into a controversy. Kinda like internet trolls but in real life.

It's a touchy subject, all that can really be done is say "We can't force religion on people, we need to allow them to make the choice themselves." and hope that nobody crosses the line.

I would be all for the yanking of certain church's tax exempt status's for getting involved on politics and lobbying efforts, a practice that is violated almost on a daily basis.

I just do the bong hits, period, and avoid the hangover altogether!

I believe in seperation of church and stae - no exception.  However this does not mean that the basic values or tenants which arise from a theological orientation should be restricted from influencing public policies.

This, I completely agree with. I'm sure Church and State would be self-enforced if the Gov't stood up and said "Okay, next religious group who attempts to change state law loses tax exempt status. Permanently."

If they want to get involved on a personal level, then that is their right, but when they get their believers involved by condemning them to Hell, then it needs to be taken away from them.

You must be doing them right now...

Its actually been awhile. Somebody keeps threatening to send me some, but it still hasn't happened!

Rumor is harvest season is approaching - then there is the drying period!

No, dude... Didn't you notice that this post is one you meant for another thread AND indeed posted exactly the same thing there?

and then in schools (read this from an ADHD list I am on) they create special rooms for Muslims to pray in, special areas for their fasting, whatevers.  The kids in public school learn about native american spirituality, they learn about jewish holidays (hanukah), they learn bits about Thanksgiving which embodies Christianity and native american beliefs.

Bend for one, you bend for all.  this is simply part of the reason I am now homeschooling, add into that the agenda of those who create the lies within textbooks.

Considering the fact that Islam, Judiasm, and Christian all have the first five books of the Bible, I'd say the ones complaining are the atheists.  the ten commandments should be basic, imo... but when you have anarchy, there are no beliefs and anything in life is justifiable.

As long as all the other Non-Profits are included with this statement!  No political agenda for one, then none for the others.

Rumor is harvest season is approaching - then there is the drying period!

Now, THAT'S a very good rumor!!!!

No, dude... Didn't you notice that this post is one you meant for another thread AND indeed posted exactly the same thing there?

Didn't I repair that? If not, it was a 54 year old brain fart!

As long as all the other Non-Profits are included with this statement!  No political agenda for one, then none for the others.

Hear, hear!!! I'm all for reducing any powers of lobbyists anyway.

What are your qulifications to teach at home?  Are you a certified teacher for K through 12?  What college training have you had in education? Is your education sufficient enough to teach all courses through all levels even high school?  Are you able to teach science and math to high school seniors preparatory to college?  High school science is quite good in many schools now.

Are the lies you speak of in the textbooks lies because they go against your religious beliefs?  Why are your religiious beliefs better than anyone elses such that you do not allow your children to learn anything about some other religion?  Are you a secular or religious teacher?  Can you guarantee that your children with home schooling can even enter a college of their choice, I said their choice not yours.  Of course you will only tell them about those colleges of your choice, right?

A real danger I see if you do not have clear separation of church and state is if you do allow them to come together which church will run the state?  How will this congregation treat all other religions, will they be allowed to follow their faith and practices when only one churchis running everything?  Does the work Taliban have any meaning here?  Or how about the very conservative far right fundamentalists in this country.  do you think they would allow people to worship any other way than theirs?  Taliban, Taliban!!

I know of a few people who were home schooled and add to that my little Brother's wife home schools their kids.  If it's done right the results are a much higher level of education.  Now for the people I know that were home schooled I know of one who is a social miss fit.  His parents were both Collage professors who really kept him sheltered and even though he was ready for collage at 14, emotionally he wasn't.  Now take the others I have seen who have tempered the home schooling with enrolling them in community sports and activities they have done extremely well.  I  do know there are standards that must be met and tests to gage their progress mandated by the state government.

Bottom line is the success rate of the quality of education that I have personally seen is much higher than that of Public Schools.  If one can afford to have one spouse stay home and teach their kids the benefits are overwhelming.

Amen to that, ironic statement but who cares? Public education is full of issues. I mean, if you have to share books, the school is underfunded. If you have outdated and broken equipment, the school is underfunded. If you have teachers who throw bitchfits, the kids wont have much incentive to learn.

What do her qualifications matter? It's her kid. Accusing her of only telling her kid about certain colleges is making a very specific statement that has no standing. And in my experience is completely wrong.

The lies in textbooks are the government's way of expanding itself among other things. Like FDR's new deal is praised as an awesome saving grace for the United States when in reality it is just a massive expansion of government. It has led us to where we are today and enabled George Bush and now Barack Obama to expand the government to new levels.

Well said, Boan.

Are you asking me seriously or just being an asshole?  As a matter of fact, I am a teacher with a degree.  I stopped teaching after I got married and had kids.  My husband also has his BS degree.  Are we educated enough to teach 4th grade?  Thank you.

Exactly.  If people knew the small few (even the "small" companies fall under the bigger ones) who actually create the textbooks, and who change history, they would be appalled.  But then, I guess one would have to become more interested and involved in their kid's lives in order to see what is going on. 

Train 'em young.  I say teach them to think for themselves and become problem solvers instead of followers.

A final note to the person who seems to have a problem with "homeschoolers"... by percentage, homeschooled children do better at being accepted into college than traditional students, never mind regular test scores, gee... and spelling bee champs if that's your thing, science clubs with homeschool groups also do very well when they go to competitions too!  In fact one group from the homeschool support group I belong to ranked very high last year in their competion class. 

If you think I sit at home all day and do education "cuz your momma says so, that's why" ala The Water Boy, you have another thing coming. 

There are absolutely no contradictions here.

If you want to bring religion into schools, then enroll in a school designed for that purpose (e.g. a Catholic school).

Public schools are just that: public, which also means funded by the public. This means a variety of people of different religions and backgrounds attend the same school. Now we could try to accomodate everyone's religious practices but that would get pretty ridiculous pretty fast, and that's what Church and home is for.

"prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

Not allowing teacher-led prayer isn't prohibiting INDIVIDUALS from practicing it. If someone wants to take time to theirself on lunch break and pray, then they're more than welcome to. Forcing ALL students to take part in prayer every day, or sit around and listen to it instead of getting their education, would be prohibiting free exercise of religious freedom.

Religious instruction isn't allowed in PUBLIC schools for the same reason. That doesn't mean religious education is banned - in fact I'm taking a course next semester studying the various religions of the world in a public high school.

"Banning religious displays depicting only one religion."

Does this really need to be discussed?

"Declared the Creation Act invalid, which had mandated the teaching of Creation if Evolution was taught."

Creationism isn't science. You can't say science is bs, then ask to have your own theories taught in a scientific class. And when people say Creationism, they're refering to Christianity's view on it - or do you want all religious views covered? Are you going to start teaching Evolution in Churches as well? Schools don't teach Evolution as fact anyway... it's a theory, as is the Big Bang THEORY. It's not contradicting anyone's religious views.

"Removal of the 10 Commandments monument in front of state courthouse."

Another one that shouldn't require explanation. Would you like to go to a courthouse with another religion's laws displayed out front? Like, you will be stoned to death if you're convicted? Or do you as fair and unbiased trial as possible, free of personal religious beliefs?

Public Education under performs - the facts are in the data.  Home School and private schooled students do far better.

Something tells me bm42 has a "dog in this fight".  What a fucking herding elitist attitude!  If one completed high school they should be able to teach the material effectively - unless of course they attended public schools!

My thoughts too, AO!  Maybe an admin who is upset at seeing funding drop with each "Declaration of Intent" filed.  When we pulled our son (who is ADHD, and though not affecting his schoolwork, the playground was a disaster), we continued to received paperwork from the PS to have him tested to be put into a special program (extra funding).  No thank you, I know the game.

FTR, WA state has standards and qualifications in order to homeschool, so he really shouldn't be concerned with the freethinkers that are being raised.

As far as Jherek's post, agree with probably the entire bit.  When I had my son in kindergarten at the public school, I was surprised to find in the Thanksgiving art a Christian verse.  Being a Christian family, I wasn't bothered but I do see how that others who aren't could be a bit taken aback.   I don't agree with prayer and fasting rooms that I had read about happening in another school (as I posted about above).  That doesn't belong in public school either.  Like I said, include one, include all of them and that will get sticky and offensive IMO.

Maybe we should do away with public schools altogether and simply have private schools, and parents with children get larger tax breaks so they can enroll their kids in a high-quality school that caters to their beliefs and standings.

Are you for real BM42,,, who the hell died and left you judge and jury over Solje's family decisions? You got your nerve. It is shallow minded people like you that contribute to the circus mentality of todays supposedily educated society. Lets have a reality check shall we- public schools are failing our children while teachers paychecks are growing. Teachers are taking the position that it is the childrens fault they are not learning or budget cuts are doing it or any other excuse they can muster.

PUBLIC SCHOOL FAILURE: THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WERE NOT TAUGHT TO READ,THEN LABELED DISABLED

How audacious of you to presume that Solje's decisions reflect her desire for her control and are not the result of her love for her children. Enough love I may add to turn away from the status quo and deal with the criticism from the likes of people like you.

My favorite woman and I homeschool her kids.  We are not religious, we just are anti-indoctrination - read my blog.  However, my daughter from the previous is attending public school.  The courts see to that for now... Thing is, she really likes her new school (she's in Kindergarten) and I want to consider her feelings about it.  If she doesn't thrive. though - she's out.  

I think that the historical representation of religion absolutely has a place in schools - a Thanksgiving prayer seems appropriate - HOWEVER, the blessing from the indigenous hosts should also be represented.  We did that in our re-enactment in first grade - I remember the Puritan hat I made out of construction paper and the feathered headband that I made for a kid who couldn't get it together... we had a blessing from both sides.  Regardless of the parity exhibited by that school, our young minds were led to believe that everything was hunky-dory between the natives and the settlers back then which was a blatant lie.  Start them young and keep up the lie, slowly building it up through the years of school until they won't believe the truth if they hear it.  That's what is wrong with school curriculum and that's the way the usurping power-brokers want it - primes us for media consumption later.  There is a method to this madness and it's all about co-opting our birthright for some dollars.  Pathetic.

mmmmmm... good indoctrination going on there.  I wonder if these teachers are qualified to teach our children?

Let's add the video of "The Story of Stuff".  yikes.  Nevermind the separation of church and state, let's look at the separation of propaganda and my child.

Critical hit.

As far as creationism and evolution go, they are both faith based. To believe that a creator made earth or to believe that we all came from primordial soup take roughly the same amount of faith. And to say that evolution is not taught as fact is not paying attention to what is going on. Talk about mindlessly following the crowd because you haven't been taught any differently.

I just puked.....

I completely agree with you, heather... Science has won the day a few times, but when some broader perspective is applied to the 'laws' of science, they fall apart.  Faith-based, indeed.  I feel that religion has provided far more valuable solace to humans in the long run, so I have a modicum of respect for religious belief.

I can't say that evolution is faith based. That's like saying that science is based on faith. Hell, if you look around the net, Pope Benedict has gone on record saying that the whole Evolution vs Creationism thing is absurd, and that evolution can co-exist with creationism.

Straight from the mouth of the Pope himself, the top dog of Christianity.

Science IS based on faith.  Name a instance where one scientist's beliefs did not shape the nature of their research.  The minute a conclusion has been reached, it is a leap of faith, period.  

There aren't any, a scientist will do absolutely nothing without a hypothesis. There is no science in me using plastic wheels on a car. But me wondering what effect it will have, and thinking it will work, then trying it, that's science (and damn stupid, don't try plastic wheels on a car).

"What are your qulifications to teach at home? Are you a certified teacher for K through 12? What college training have you had in education? Is your education sufficient enough to teach all courses through all levels even high school? Are you able to teach science and math to high school seniors preparatory to college? High school science is quite good in many schools now."

Well um to be honest, homeschooled kids have to pass the same regulated tests as the rest of us did. You can't just say "I'm homeschooling my kid" and that's that. There is obviously more room to expand on what all is being taught but the same basic curriculum must be included. Quite frankly a lot of actualy teachers aren't even qualified to be teaching... I have one teacher whom the school principal claims is "the greatest teacher he's ever known" (she must be nailing him) and it's a load of crap; I have now been stuck with her in four different courses, and not ONE SINGLE test I have had with her has not required being corrected after I've gone over her marking. Schools have become a joke.

"And to say that evolution is not taught as fact is not paying attention to what is going on. Talk about mindlessly following the crowd because you haven't been taught any differently."

I'm mindlessly following the crowd... uh.. huh..? I'm telling you that even in my own personal experience it is not taught as fact. In all of my science courses we were taught both the Big Bang THEORY and the THEORY of Evolution. BOTH specifically included the word "theory." I think that word is pretty clear. It's always been "scientists believe..." - those words come up VERY often in school.

Everything taught in school is quite frankly TRUNCATED. Science has other theories on how we and the Universe came to be. But can they teach it all? No. It's goverment regulated and all schools are concerned about is passing standarized tests. It's the same in all courses. There're multiple sides to everything and we rarely get to see them in typical classes.

I think that in the 21century there shouldn't be such a question. It's an axiom that the Church must be separated from the State. I think that we have enough examples of the harmful influence of the different religious organizations on the society.