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New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

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New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Tough proposals to cut the world's biggest banks down to size by taxing their profits and pay were outlined by the International Monetary Fund tonight in an attempt to spare taxpayers another massive public bailout of the financial sector.

In measures more stringent than Wall Street and the City had expected, the fund called for the introduction of a twin-track approach to the three-year banking crisis that would both force firms to pay for any future support packages and raise new taxes on their profits and remuneration.

The report, prepared by the Washington-based institution for the G20 group of developed and developing nations, was seized upon by Gordon Brown as evidence that his push for an international crackdown on the banking sector was gaining support.

Leaked in advance of the fund's meeting this weekend, the blueprint emerged as the investment bank Goldman Sachs released better than expected first quarter revenues and admitted its bonus and pay pool had reached $5.5bn (£3.3bn) in the first three months of 2010.

The anticipated study called for a financial stability contribution (FSC), which should be paid by all financial institutions, not just banks, and used to bail out weak and failing firms. It would initially be paid at a flat rate but eventually be tailored to suit institutions' size and riskiness.

While banks had been braced for the FSC plan, they were caught unawares by the proposal for a financial activities tax (FAT), which would be based on the profits and the pay structure of the firms.

Anti-poverty campaigners had been pinning their hopes on the IMF endorsing a so-called Robin Hood tax under which a small levy would be placed on all financial transactions. However, the fund said such an approach "does not appear to be well suited to the specific purposes" set out by the G20 in its mandate. The fund said the financial sector had become too big as a result of being taxed too lightly, and said this could be addressed by the FAT, which it compared to VAT.

Downing Street said the fund's preference for a global deal rather than a go-it-alone approach by individual countries was a snub to George Osborne, who has insisted the Conservatives would impose a levy regardless of what other nations do. The IMF said: "International co-operation would be beneficial, particularly in the context of cross-border financial institutions. Countries' experiences in the recent crisis differ widely and so do their priorities as they emerge from it. But none is immune from the risk of a future – and inevitably global – financial crisis. Unilateral actions by governments risk being undermined by tax and regulatory arbitrage."

The fund added that co-operation required only broad agreement rather than complete uniformity and did not specify rates for the two new taxes. A Brown aide said the report "is radical and in line" with what they had argued for at the G20 in November – when Brown surprised his Treasury team by promoting the idea of international levies. "It is another big judgment call that Gordon Brown got right and David Cameron got wrong," the aide said.

Alistair Darling, the chancellor welcomed the report. He said: "The recognition that banks should make a contribution to the society in which they operate is right."

Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable also welcomed the report. "If we are to create a stable banking system, we must ensure that taxpayers are not expected to underwrite the risks of reckless casino banking, and that pay and bonuses within banks do not reward irresponsible behaviour."

A Conservative spokesman said: "We have led the way in proposing a levy on the banks so we welcome this IMF report. Sweden has already introduced a bank tax. Germany and the Unites States are in the process of introducing one - the UK should do the same."

Max Lawson, policy adviser at Oxfam, said: "The IMF have given the green light to a tax on banks. To be worthy of Robin Hood it must raise hundreds of billions each year and be directly linked to fighting poverty at home and abroad, and tackling climate change."

Angela Knight, chief executive of the British Bankers' Association, said: "Clearly what this appears to say is very wide ranging and covers much more of the financial services sector than the industry expected. Taxation is not without consequences and additional taxation is not without additional consequences."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2010/apr/20/imf-tax-global-banks

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can't support a GLOBAL anything but especially not a global TAX.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

I am neither a progressive or a globalist.  I am becoming more of an isolationist as time passes.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Well, what do you propose they do, if they won't allow these institutions to fail?

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Allow them to fail.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

I agree.

 

But, the cost to the public of failure leaves no recourse for those to recover any failed monies. I know you'll say that discovering this fraud is on the consumer, but the amount of work required to expose it, much less recover from it is an enormously disproportionate responsibility for them to carry as a burden. If not, why don't you walk a mile down THAT road and discover that for yourself!

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Interesting. You claim you agree and then proceed to justify bailing out these irresponsible companies. The problem with bailing out these companies is that it encourages more behavior in the same manner. Why should they act responsibly when they know they can reap the profits and get the government help when it goes sour?

Risk is associated with any transaction that is done. The investors that bought these derivatives or invested in these companies went looking for risk. I didn't however. I should not be forced to bear part of the brunt of their bad decision making. That is what bail outs do. They take money from people who decided to take less risky investments and uses it to ease the "suffering" of the people that take huge risks and lose.

This idea of a global bail out fund that we have to pay into is a really bad idea because we are at the top of the chain. So this can only be used to drag us down to the other economies.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Let them fail regardless of size.  They can be forced into an orderly sale of assets and let the market determine the values.  There is always a lsoer in these deals but it can't always be the American taxpayer and consumers.  Bad decisions don't deserve a reward or support.  I suspect failure will soon be eliminated from our vocabulary so everyone can feel good about themselves.  Fuck that shit - life is hard, even sucks at times but that is life and it should be without human imposed sanctions!

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Well, the consumer lost more than the companies here, and that's what sits badly with me here.

 

Boan, you confuse me with that sidestep. You know the issue. YOU will claim that it's up to an uneducated consumer to choose who they do business with. I (and you) as an uneducated consumer had no control over whether our mortgages were bought sold and traded. What solutions do you have for that, and the investors who trade and invest in such commodities besides letting them fail? And by that, I mean that WHEN they fail, many will be out as these companies were playing with other's monies, and those are the true failures out there. So, even if the companies fail, they still lose less than the consumer. Yet, you rail against any fair regulation, where some may be needed, and refuse to address this obvious issue with your one-liners. This is what gives tea-baggers a bad name. They need solutions to go with their agenda to become a more credible entity.

 

And while I agree with their sentiment, I caution against the outcomes of these type of solutions.

 

Now, don't pull this absolutist bullshit on me here, either. No, No, No! There CAN be a reasonable middle ground with appropriate and a more reasonable representation, rather than the dangerously reactive politics we have today. One such solution is to bar the sale of a finalized mortgage. There, wasn't that simple?

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Uh, ... boan? You've been here, and ignored. Think up a really good response to recover any credibility here.

 

Or, you could just be honest.....

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Everyone loses in these situations except for a few sharp crooked elite mother fuckers!  The consumer too bears some responsiblity in the recipe of failure, we don't get off either. 

Order in the chaos of humanity begins with the individual, it is after all a cause/effect relationship we experience.

 

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Everybody loses is a real copout, AO. It may not have affected you as much as others, but companies lose other people's money.

 

That's the bottom line. You and boan imply that those are responsible because they did'nt "oversee" their fund "managers" well enough. Now, that may be true. BUT, what is also true is that we all paid for these services, as a service, which implied they needed no oversight, as they are all licensed, had to pass tests, published financial reports, etc.

 

BOAN. What more could we have done?????

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

I actually did respond to this thread but, I hate the way the board fucking logs you out. I should learn my lesson and C&P before posting but I forgot.

So here it goes again.

You and I and other consumers have everything needed to be informed. Firm must BY LAW file a prospectus with the govenrment that everyone is privy to.

They must BY LAW provide an annual report to EVERY INVESTOR informing them of where their money is. (most people chunk these in the garbage) And people make a living by explaining these things to people. So stating the "I didn't know" is lame as hell.

When it comes to investing a person can either risk their money or not. If you are willing to risk without knowing the facts so be it. Otherwise invest in gold,  mason jars and a shovel and have at it.

You wouldn't go to directv or the cable company, tell them here's a $100, put me some channels on the TV and walk out. A person would first find out what channels they can get and then weigh the decision to spend the money for the channels offered or go somewhere else with a better channel to dollar ratio. Investing is the same except the books have less pictures!

You don't seem to grasp the concept that a chance of failure and losing money is part of the equation. If you mitigate that part of the equation, the system becomes broke. Which brings me to what I have said. The current system of the government taking mine and your (and Chiner's) money that WASN'T freely invested to subsidize the loses of those that DID freely take the risk (that is part of investing) IS BROKEN. They took the risk let them suffer the consequences.

Bar the sale of finalized mortgages? Who is being absolutist and reactionary now? What would you accomplish by doing that? I don't care who hold the note to my home. It makes no difference.

Oh wait. That would eliminate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, maybe it's not such a bad idea.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Dupe Post

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Mysandrist Fool wrote:

Everybody loses is a real copout, AO. It may not have affected you as much as others, but companies lose other people's money.

 

That's the bottom line. You and boan imply that those are responsible because they did'nt "oversee" their fund "managers" well enough. Now, that may be true. BUT, what is also true is that we all paid for these services, as a service, which implied they needed no oversight, as they are all licensed, had to pass tests, published financial reports, etc.

 

BOAN. What more could we have done?????

No what I say is losing money is part of the system. I once had a lengthy discussion with a religious person (fundie, Baptist, Mormon, I don't remember) that told me that going to Vegas was sinful. I asked if they had money invested  in the stock market. They did but somehow didn't consider that sinful like Vegas. Truth is, they are the same, a gamble.
Just the stock market is considered less of a gamble and is so common place people forget about the chance of losing it all. Especially in recent years (not the past couple but think a decade before that) since times have been very good.

What needs to be done is Interest rates need to go up, the government needs to quit printing money and handing it to banks, this way banks will be interested in paying normal people to put money in savings. Right now (and in past years) we run almost solely on
credit BUY BUY BUY. This is because no advantage exists to keep money in the bank. What we really need right now is to slow down spending and increase personal savings. However your great and benevolent
government is INTENT on doing just the opposite. They want people to SPEND SPEND
SPEND and Housing pricing to go UP UP UP so people can get more credit
and then they can SPEND SPEND SPEND! It's an assine system and it is our
economy.

 

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Uhhh, they advertise themselves as a service so that you CAN chuck those prospectus's in the garbage. That's fraud.

And, you don't lose money with a cable company along the lines that you can with an investment firm. Which industry is responsible and advertises services that will keep one "financially comfortable? Which firms then invest money in resellable mortgages, knowing DAMN well they were bad, then didn't report them? That's fraud.

 

You want to go ahead and put together these pieces as a consumer? Be my guest. You should be able to make a fortune off of it! Go ahead boan, show me what you're speaking of, absolutist.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

What you just posted is complete rubbish.

Investment companies do not advertise themselves as companies so you can just hand them your money and forget it. They are in the business of SELLING you a product. The product is investment vehicles. It's COMPLETELY up to the investor how the money is distributed. Now a person may ask their advice on a particular product and they will advise them in what they feel is the best choice for you. You seem to think that the people that lost money didn't know what they were investing in. I don't believe that to be the case.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Bull. I am not a "professional" investor. Neither are you. And, .... those that are withheld insider information, except for themselves as shown by the recent investigations. And, they did that with our money.

 

That's not my fault. Justify away, absolutist.

 

At least go out and wash. Take a bath.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Goldman Sachs? If they did something illegal they will be made to pay for it. Here again you are being the ab-ab-absolutist by grouping the whole industry into one group based on a single company. So did you have money in Goldman?

Goldman would have already paid for what they have done if...oh...wait...for..it....they hadn't been bailed out by the government.

If you don't want to lose money don't invest.

Nut up or shut up.

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It's COMPLETELY up to the investor how the money is distributed.

Ya sure. I actually agree with the above sentiment, except for your DEFENSE of these companies who took insider info, with YOUR money and profited from it.

 

Apparently, that is still OK with you. Now the rest of what you wrote is good, but simply backpeddling after your initial onslaught. I think everybody agrees that they should pay for that. Tell me something new, without putting a corporate defensive spin on it. Cause the image you still project is that corporate responsibility was actually the responsibility of the investor?

 

Yup. We shoulda known about that insider stuff. The only question is how?

 

Silly me.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

The problem is you are painting the whole industry with a broad brush based on the actions of one company.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Well, at least you changed the subject! And, it was much, much more than one company.

 

But, justify away......

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Really who else?

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Mysandrist Fool wrote:

Yup. We shoulda known about that insider stuff. The only question is how?

 

Silly me.

I thought about this a little. The question is why were people investing in something they didn't understand. The short selling by Goldman, didn't affect the trading of the stock. Nor was it  "insider" trading. They were taking a gamble that the market would go down. That happens on every investment out there. Want some spin on it? How's this? Goldman was able to sell these derivatives to people because government is supposed to be regualting these investments and dropped the ball. People become complacent and dependent on big govco to do what they tell us they will. When govco fails (which it always does at some point) the people get screwed.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Lehman brothers.

 

You've posted on it in here. Don't play stoopid.

 

This is much, much more than standard investment risks going on here and you know it.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

WAMU, BoA, JP Morgan Chase, Citi, etc.

Actually here's a couple lists Eye-wink

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/bankbailout/

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html


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It didn't affect the trading of the stock? What about the effect on the ENTIRE economy? Fuck their stock. Fuck them and those that defend them.

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Mysandrist Fool wrote:

Lehman brothers.

 

You've posted on it in here. Don't play stoopid.

 

This is much, much more than standard investment risks going on here and you know it.

 

I was talking about companies that did something ILLEGAL or have/are being investingated for illegal activities.

If you are talking about the companies that made stupid overly risky investments then you are correct there are many of them. But that is what these companies do. They also have to invest clients money as clients direct them to. The Lehman situation is what SHOULD HAVE happened with all of them. The people that had their money with Lehman brosthers didn't lose any more money than if you had your money with WaMu, BoA, Chase, Wachovia etc. The investment co can go completely broke and the investors not lose a dime. Their money is tied to the investments not to the company that manages their portfolio. Therefore, the individual investors would have lost money only if they choose to invest in the risky vehicles offered. Which leads me back to the question of why would someone invest in something they have no idea what it is? That is dumb. Fact is, I don't even think that most brokers truly understood exactly what these derivative investments are. However until we get to place where people understand that they are personally responsible for the things that happen to them we will keep traveling down the path we are going. The folks that lost on these investments should realize, I made the choice to hand my money over to someone and not check behind them to ensure they are being honest. That what I am invested in is what I think it is. The current attitude is borne of complacency and laziness.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Uhhhh.

 

INSIDER trading IS illegal. Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

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Nice observation there Sherlock, but it wasn't happening, not by the Investment firms anyway.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Please tell me they understood the derivatives again! I loved that part!!!! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

 

Fact is boan, you'll say anything to justify when you're in a pickle, .... to the point where you'll actually cut your nose off!

 

Just try not to cut anything else off, OK?

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Typical MF when you haven't a clue you deflect deflect deflect.

You take a common everyday practice in the investment business and try to call it some buzz word you heard on the radio. It is impossible by definition to "inside trade" a whole market like the  mortgage industry. No one needed to. It didn't take a prophet to knwo the housing market was going to implode. Hell, I knew it. A person can go out and search the net and find many article written before 2008 that state things are going to end badly.

Just like ti should have been common sense that if interest rates are at their historic low you don't get an adjustable rate mortgage.

Hello. Get a clue.

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"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

Mysandrist Fool
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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

your silence is deafening.........

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

There was nothing to respond to. I refuse to go back around in a circle with you. Take it like a man, or cut off your nose.  

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

More like nothing you can respond to because you are c-l-u-e-l-e-s-s.

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"There is nothing more permanent than a "temporary" government program"
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one...."
-- James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

First of all if you are not willing or interested enough to investigate a company/fund/etc. before investing and rely soley on the word/advice of a broker offering you an educated guess then accept the fact you just risked your investment.  If you are comfortable risking an amount in the hope of seeing a nice return (profit) that implies personal responsiblity win, lose or draw!  The stock market is a gamble and there are always losers and winners in that game.  It is not meant to be a win/win as its ultimate intent is the transfer of another's wealth to your side of the column.

 

All this whinning is just that.  As an investor/gambler you take the outcome and then regroup for the next event in an attempt to either recover or increase your personal portfolio.  As i see it greed exists at all levels of market participation.  That is the name of the game, so accept the responsiblity for both gains and loses!  My guess is given a huge windfall profit the typical investor is more than willing to boast about their market savy, but when the lose hits close to home the irresponsible always look for another to blame!

BTW - Gold broke above $1200 yesterday!  Laughing out loud

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

An educated guess? Hell, they flat out stated that the market was just fine, even as they were busy selling off their own shares first!

 

Justify away.... Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

My view of the stock market is about the same as I have for playing Monopoly.  It is all about funny money!

There are other less risky forms of investment and over time they will deliver a substantial return.  Real estate is one of those areas, but of course if you buy at the peak of a market then your return will take longer to be realized.  The best advice for potential market players is don't invest any amount unless you are willing to lose it!  Most of the problems started when every greedy dick on the planet decided to start playing the market without the skill set or knowledge to do so efficiently.   Greed is a pretty influential emotion - be aware of it and keep it under control or suffer the consequences.

I have a brief case full of stock certificates that are worthless today, i keep them as a reminder of just how fast one can lose money!

It is not that I don't sympathize with those who lost their butts, but then I say stop the whining and learn from the experience.  In the future do your research, assume you are being mislead, identify the hidden agendas then if you still are willing to risk assets then it is your decision and responsiblity to live with.

Unless people start accepting their role in all this shit we are dealing with nothing will ever change.  I am so tired of hearing the blame placed on everyone but the individual.  We are all part of the system and as such bear some personal responsiblity in it all!  If we want to correct the wrongs we must first be honest with ourselves and accept our individual roles in the process.

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Re: New global 'FAT' tax to rein in banks

IMO a lot of the problem with the Stock Market is people think it's a "get rich quick" scheme.  Now true if you're lucky you can get rich "quick" just like the lottery, but don't bet the farm on it.  The day traders and other assholes like them a consistently flipping stock which creates a huge amount of chaos, bottom line they're gamblers.  Just like those pieces of shit's who fucked up the housing market with buying houses only to "flip" it for a quick profit.  This was a primary source for the housing bubble that fucked everyone.

Anyway one needs to do research, invest wisely in multiple company's and stay in for the ride.

Bottom line as with the vast majority of problems we have in in the U.S. is the obsession for "Cheap and Immediate Gratification", that is the source of ruin for our society.

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The Prince does not dismiss morality, instead, it politically defines “Morality"
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