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Ruling curbs Multnomah County Domestic Violence Program

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Ruling curbs Multnomah County Domestic Violence Program

by Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian
Monday September 29, 2008, 8:54 PM

Subpoenas landed on the desks of several domestic violence victims' advocates this summer, ordering them to show up in Multnomah County Circuit Court with files containing victims' statements against alleged attackers in two pending cases.

The subpoenas sent shock waves through the county's nationally recognized domestic violence program, prompting a special team of police, prosecutors, parole officers and advocates who work together to intervene in high-risk cases to stop accepting new ones. The Domestic Violence Enhanced Response Team came to a screeching halt.

"We didn't know what to tell victims. We were unable to say 'Trust us, your information would remain confidential.' So we stopped," said Chiquita Rollins, the county's domestic violence coordinator.

Advocates argued that divulging confidential information about victims or subpoenaing records would have a "substantial chilling effect" on victims. Rollins cautioned that offenders could use information gleaned from an advocate's file to intimidate victims and keep them from testifying.

Defense lawyers countered they had the right to review victims' statements before trial. In an unusual circumstance, the Multnomah County district attorneys sided with the defense. Prosecutors demanded that the advocates' material be turned over to the defense as part of pretrial discovery.

"This was a difficult situation for us, because the advocates really are our partners in this program," said Darian Stanford, a Multnomah County deputy district attorney. "But the law is clear. We're obliged to follow the U.S. Constitution and Oregon law."

The dispute landed before a Multnomah County judge, who identified two competing interests: the need to provide a fair process to people accused of a crime and the need for confidentiality to protect victims of domestic violence.

The debate is not unique to Multnomah County. It's arisen elsewhere in the nation where such collaboration between police and community-based advocates has been encouraged to better tackle domestic violence or other serious crimes. Some states afford victims' advocates confidentiality privileges akin to that of attorney-client or doctor-patient, but not Oregon. "It's a growing question and area of debate and legal attention," said Rhonda Martinson, a former domestic violence prosecutor who now is managing attorney at the Battered Women's Justice Project in Minneapolis.

In the Multnomah County cases, Judge Maureen H. McKnight ultimately ordered victims' statements that advocates already had shared with police and prosecutors be turned over to the defense. The county immediately halted its program and spent the summer revamping it.

"I'm bummed out," said Portland police Capt. Chris Uehara, head of the Portland police family services division. "The momentum was strong. The whole point was we're working under one roof, collaboratively. Now, it seems like we're having to take two or three steps backward."

Since it began four years ago, the multiagency team has helped about 480 victims. Program coordinators had hoped to kick off a restructured program by Wednesday with clearer guidelines on what victim information should be shared.

Participants are striving to maintain the collaboration, yet not curtail the independence of advocates who work for nonprofit agencies or compromise the legal obligations of police and prosecutors. Finding that balance has proved tricky.

One immediate change was to discontinue advocates' access to the Portland police database, a practice divulged at the summer court hearings that troubled McKnight.

"Can of worms"

Multnomah County public defender Lisa Pardini filed the subpoenas in June. She represented 28-year-old Donald Leroy Russell, who faced multiple burglary, assault and harassment charges and a restraining order violation.

As part of pretrial discovery, Pardini sought to examine what his alleged victim, Gionni Crawford, said about Russell to the domestic violence victims' advocates. Pardini argued that her client had the right to confront his accuser and determine whether she changed her story. Soon, another public defender who had a similar case representing Kenneth Clowers, now 38, joined in.

"I just did a discovery request," Pardini said. "I didn't realize I was going to open this can of worms."

But that's exactly what occurred.

Shocked by the subpoenas, and disturbed that the district attorney took the defense side, advocates and county domestic violence workers refused to turn over documents and got their own lawyers. "We were not prepared for that," said Joslyn Baker, who coordinates the Domestic Violence Enhanced Response Team. "The team felt really attacked. It took a toll on them."

During a two-day hearing in June, Pardini pointed out that domestic violence victims' advocates work with police and prosecutors, partly, to hold high-risk offenders accountable. The team also holds bimonthly meetings in which advocates, police, and a prosecutor typically review and discuss individual cases and victim reports. She also recalled that in another case she handled, advocates had recommended that her client be kept in custody as he awaited trial based on a risk assessment they had done.

"So they're actually involving themselves in the case to a level that they want that person to receive the highest punishment or highest level of supervision they can get," Pardini told the court. "Now that they're being asked to produce statements by the alleged victim, they're saying, 'No, no, no, we're not part of the system. We're just out here to help the victim.' They can't have it both ways."
"Not going to happen"
An attorney representing advocates from Raphael House and Volunteers for America argued that the victim's safety is what's at stake. Because the advocates receive partial funding under the federal Violence Against Women Act, she argued they are protected under its confidentiality clause. Advocates don't work for the government but contract with the county. "My clients are third parties. The DA does not have the right to reach into the files of nongovernmental entities for this purpose," Heidee Stoller told the judge.

In an interview, a 29-year-old woman who was a victim of domestic violence said the team's advocates helped her figure out a "safety plan," and find a shelter. "It would be terrifying if my advocate was called to testify about that because it could have made me unsafe," the woman said.

Stanford countered in court that the federal Constitution and state law require prosecutors to disclose any relevant statements of people the district attorney intends to call as witnesses. "We certainly intend to call the victim as a witness," Stanford said.

McKnight ruled that the federal law doesn't prohibit disclosure of such records. She limited her order to those records that advocates had shared with police or prosecutors.

The team's organizers hoped to restart the program by Wednesday, yet not all the partners are ready to sign off. "Not going to happen," Uehara said Friday, noting that police can't accept some language in the new protocols, such as looking the other way when victims have unrelated arrest warrants.

Baker remains hopeful the team can continue. "We're really tightening up what victims' information can be shared with police and prosecutors. I think writing it down is one thing. But practicing it is another. That's going to be a big learning piece."

You Can Read The Comments At:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/09/ruling_curbs_multnomah_county.html

Mysandrist Fool
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Hmmmm. I posted a comment

Hmmmm. I posted a comment this morning and it was not allowed in. I wonder why as it was a clean post with good data in it. Sad

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MMMMMM Let me put on my

MMMMMM Let me put on my thinking cap
Tin Foil Hat Cat

In all seriousness I wouldn't put it past them for filtering content that doesn't meet within their "Politically Correct" vision, that is the nature of the beast ya know Eye-wink

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Interesting that a few

Interesting that a few concepts these so called "Advocates" fail to grasp,

* Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

* Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

* Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

* Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

* Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

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Nice thinking cap.... All

Nice thinking cap....

All jokes aside, this is a serious matter that is changing fast. All hell could break loose if somebody forces Biden's hand during the debates. There's a lot of unhappy men and women out there over this. And the ranks will grow until reform happens.

Its just a matter of time. Beating a Dead Horse

Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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I'm going to dissent and take

I'm going to dissent and take you both on here.

Get fucking real guys.
Yup...that's what I said. Get real.

Though I support the notion that statements relating to the alleged CRIME be disclosed...........that's where my support ends.
It's dispicable to think that the advocates would be forced to cough up anymore than that. Period.

I have always been an advocate for men when it comes to violence against them by women. I am the crazy bitch screaming HEY...LOOK...IT HAPPENS TO MEN TOO....CUT THE SHIT AND GENDER BIAS! I have advocated for equal services for men - equal rights for fathers etc.

But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

That alone is reason enough to NOT release safety plan info or other info pertinent to the continued safety of women and their kids who are genuinely fleeing abuse.
The verdict is what determines validity in our culture. And until there's a NOT GUILTY or INNOCENT verdict - women and their children should be protected AT ALL COST.

Goddamn I'm glad I live here. The charter provides for this....for both women AND men. The right to security of the person...and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the fundamental principles of justice. (Jail, arrest etc.)

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Like I said above

Like I said above Lynn

Interesting that a few concepts these so called "Advocates" fail to grasp,

* Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

* Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

* Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

* Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

* Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

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-- Niccolò Machiavelli

Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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Also - just because the 6th

Also - just because the 6th says the perp has a right to confront the witness (or victim as the case may be) doesn't mean that this ALWAYS happens does it?

Jesus christ....I'm a bit confused here. On the one hand Pagan, you laugh at bible thumpers who hold so tightly to their dogmatic and archaic ways of seeing and doing things.....but on the other hand the constitution is infallable.

I disagree. I believe that change happens period. And as a result of those changes in our society, we have to change laws as well as ways of doing things.
Which is why there is an exemption for children who have been raped.

If we did not CHANGE the way things are..............MEN WOULD NOT be afforded equal rights as women where children are concerned. And while I don't think this has quite happened....it IS happening in many places in both the US and Canada.

One other thing...upon closer reading of the original article...I see that there was "no real threat" of releasing info regarding a persons' safety plan etc.
Another provision. hmm

Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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Apply your attitude to a case

Apply your attitude to a case where I 9 y/o boy has been raped by his uncle perp Pagan.

DO you feel the same contempt for those advocates? The same contempt for the child victim?

Why not?

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OK Lynn you say someone can

OK Lynn you say someone can be accused, thrown in jail on only an accusation with zero evidence, only on a mere accusation. Then when going to court they are not allowed to even see nor challenge any so called evidence? MMMMM kinda sounds like King George's Gitmo. I see Lynn that you are agreeing with King George that the Constitution is just a "God Damn piece of paper" and that Government, the Courts and Justice System can write and change the rules on the fly. So the Rule of Law is only "Optional" eh?

BTW Lynn this thinking is the same as when Religion Ruled, it was called the "Dark Ages". Then when we started coming out of the Dark Ages and into the Age of Enlightenment came the Magna Carta (ought to read it sometime Eye-wink ), which was a heavy influence in the creation of the U.S. Constitution. So Lynn you want to follow King George's lead into returning to the Dark Ages?

Jesus christ....I'm a bit confused here. On the one hand Pagan, you laugh at bible thumpers who hold so tightly to their dogmatic and archaic ways of seeing and doing things.....but on the other hand the constitution is infallable.

Really Lynn who's the one here following the Bible thumpers?

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The Prince does not dismiss morality, instead, it politically defines “Morality"
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Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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Back up that bus! You put

Back up that bus!

You put words in my mouth on the first damn sentence - anmd every sentence that followed!!!!!

I DID NOT SAY TO CONVICT W/O ANY EVIDENCE WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM??????????

Show me where in ANY post I have EVER written where I even REMOTELY ellude to this?????????????

No-where and never Pagan.

Additionally, NOWHERE have I EVER said they should not be "allowed to even see nor challenge any so called evidence"
Perhaps you ought to go back and read my post. I have never been accused of being vague Pagan. In fact I am often criticized for being too blunt...or at least crystal clear.

NOWHERE have I suggested that the const. is a gd pieceof paper either Pagan. Where are you coming up with this absolute bullshit?

Re-read darlin.

You are way the hell off base on your falty interpretation of my post.
And YES....we moved from the dark ages to the age of enlightenment...and had we not...we would be as stuck as we are now. Just because we progressed long ago - DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which is also why we do not put 9 y/o rape victims on the goddamn witness stand!

oy!
Also, Pagan, you would do well to not challenge me on any form of eduication (ie. read the magna carta sometime). Because to the degree that you can be sarcastic...so too can I be demeaning about one's lacking (comparative to me) education.
I try not to stoop that low. "Try" being the operative word.
If you want to "inform" someone...you can do so without demeaning comments like the one above. You can do so by providing that information. In that way you do not alienate yourself, nor place yourself above the person you are communicating with. This encourages continued discussion - rather than the thread dying.

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Lynn I was responding to your

Lynn I was responding to your direct challenge to my post which consisted solely on the point of the disregard for the Rule of Law which is the U.S. Constitution. This is what the story is about and what the judge ruled on that you find seem to find so offensive.

As to my "sarcasm", sorry it wasn't meant to be, it's honestly meant to be a suggestion. You know me I'm blunt and more times than not I'm more like a Bull in a China Shop. I'm by no means an English Major, hence my shitty vocabulary and writing skills Eye-wink

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Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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Lynn I was responding to your

Lynn I was responding to your direct challenge to my post which consisted solely on the point of the disregard for the Rule of Law which is the U.S. Constitution...

Pagan - if you had read my entire post...you would see that I retracted - citing the original article and saying that there was no real threat to disclose info pertaining to the victims safety.

Again...this is an exemption - DESPITE the constitution Pagan.

What I am REALLY challenging you on is this notion that the constitution need never be changed...that it is the be-all-end-all of the American way of life...when in fact it is simply guiding principles - that DO require change over time....
To negate this is to share the dogmatic and archaic "ways" of bible thumpers.............

My post was clear in that I agree that disclosure is NECESSARY....but disclosure of information that may potentially put the "victim" at risk is not.

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Quote:But get fucking

Quote:
But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

This is how real I will get, Lynn. That is only part of the story.

Here is a statistic from Fathers for life.

American government agencies report numbers that are more objective, not as subjective as those Jeff White selected. In the US in 1999, 70.3 percent of perpetrators of child abuse were female parents acting alone or with others. Out of an estimated 826,000 victims of child maltreatment, nation-wide, 1,100 were fatalities. Their perpetrators break down as follows:

PERPETRATOR RELATIONSHIP [3]

31.5% Female Parent Only
10.7% Male Parent Only *
21.3% Both Parents *
16.3% Female Parent and Other
1.1% Male Parent and Other *
4.5% Family Relative
6.1% Substitute Care Provider(s)
5.7% Other
2.7% Unknown

* "Male parent" in that context most likely is just about anything but a natural father.

But, if you wish to talk about murder, this is very telling.

That means that, acting alone or with others, female parents were responsible in 69.1 percent, and male parents in 33.1 percent of cases of fatal child maltreatment.

This also comes down to reliability in statistical reporting. This is one of the MAJOR issues here. Now, to get things straight, murder is murder. NONE of it is any good. But, to be fair here, I'm not talking about murder inasmuch as I am about how DV courts circumvent due process. Reform this, and I will be silent. Make it fair and I will be silent. Make it gender-neutral, and I will go silent forever. That's all I'm asking for.

Quote:
Goddamn I'm glad I live here. The charter provides for this....for both women AND men. The right to security of the person...and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the fundamental principles of justice. (Jail, arrest etc.)

Hear, hear!

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OK Lynn here we go, let me

OK Lynn here we go, let me make myself as clear as I can.


Lynn4Peace wrote:
What I am REALLY challenging you on is this notion that the constitution need never be changed...that it is the be-all-end-all of the American way of life...when in fact it is simply guiding principles - that DO require change over time....
To negate this is to share the dogmatic and archaic "ways" of bible thumpers.............

I don't believe I've ever said that it should never be changed. There is a process to change the Constitution, it's very difficult as it should be but that is the one of the examples of the brilliance of our Founding Fathers that it can be changed. How else would we have gotten things like the Bill of Rights? But the FACT still remains the same, the U.S. Constitution is the supreme rule of law for the U.S. To allow a certain privileged few and our Government to ignore it "at will" does what Lynn? It allows the ruling class and their "anointed pets" to do what ever the fuck they choose with no disregard to the rule of law is what Tyranny is all about and I will never ever condone nor support that.


Lynn4Peace wrote:
My post was clear in that I agree that disclosure is NECESSARY....but disclosure of information that may potentially put the "victim" at risk is not.

There's always measures that can be taken to "protect" the alleged "Victim". Things like testimony behind screens, not disclosing their address, etc. This is what a Judge is for, to insure the rule of law is followed without putting the "alleged" Victim at risk.

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Quote:One other thing...upon

Quote:
One other thing...upon closer reading of the original article...I see that there was "no real threat" of releasing info regarding a persons' safety plan etc.
Another provision. hmm

If ANY information is shared with the police, it MUST be attainable by those being charged. Otherwise, you get coached behavior in courts, which also trump up the charges and makes these cases utterly indefensible.

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Quote: Apply your attitude

Quote:

Apply your attitude to a case where I 9 y/o boy has been raped by his uncle perp Pagan.

DO you feel the same contempt for those advocates? The same contempt for the child victim?

Why not?

What contempt? Due process should be due process, shouldn't it? When a nine year old has been raped (which isn't what this article is about, BTW), the accused should be charged based upon the evidence.
But, to get real here, I know what you are talking about.

Here's my take. To base a system upon the worst of the worst slings an umbrella out there that many innocent and lesser degree of offenders get caught up in. Therein lies the dilemma. One of the MAJOR problems is manipulation of statistics that vilifies all based upon the actions of a few EXTREME cases. You know my take on reform. And that would be to ticket first time level 4 offenders as a warning. But taking the EXTREME cases like you do here and present them as your "basis", is part of the problem.

Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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I don't lnow how to quote in

I don't lnow how to quote in this forum...so I'll do my best here....

Rep said...
This is how real I will get, Lynn. That is only part of the story.

Here is a statistic from Fathers for life.

American government agencies report numbers that are more objective, not as subjective as those Jeff White selected. In the US in 1999, 70.3 percent of perpetrators of child abuse were female parents acting alone or with others. Out of an estimated 826,000 victims of child maltreatment, nation-wide, 1,100 were fatalities. Their perpetrators break down as follows:

......................I want to assure you that I read your entire post...and do not need to address the evidence....I have never disagreed that women are child abusers......

You were referring to my quote....as follows....

But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

What you quoted has absolutly nothign to do with what I wrote.......
I WAS SAYING...since no information relating to a woman's safety is at risk....then disclose ALL else. Because fair is fair.

anyway....
Pagan my response to you about changing the constiotution - is - where there's a will there's a way. If the people want a change, there will be one. That's how the constitution is ammended....it has to start with the people.

MF you said

If ANY information is shared with the police, it MUST be attainable by those being charged.

Totally disagree. She will likely share her place of residence with police...and if she truly is terrified...there's going to be a serious problem.....
Feel free to replace the word He for she

In my opinion, violence should not be a measure we reduce ourselves to....ever....
But who's perfect? lol

And this...

What contempt? Due process should be due process, shouldn't it?

And exemptions are made where necessary......

Holy crap ...smoked one and can't do this anymore tonight!
g'night! Eye-wink

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Here Lynn I just created

Here Lynn I just created another button for quotes


teaser

That will give you the quote brackets, you can also edit the first quote box to give a specific reply from by


[quote=Big Sexy Beast] I'm just too damn sexy [/quote]

This will give you the output of -


Big Sexy Beast wrote:
I'm just too damn sexy

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There you are! Quote:I have

There you are!

Quote:
I have never disagreed that women are child abusers......

And I never disagreed that child rape is bad either. See the point? There is none. We're off on a tangent now. Let's get back on topic, shall we? I know. It was a cheap stunt. I'll refrain from this point forward.

Quote:
But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

I'm not so sure about that. I KNOW the statistics are skewed and biased. I don't trust them. That was one of my major points above.

Quote:
I WAS SAYING...since no information relating to a woman's safety is at risk....then disclose ALL else. Because fair is fair.

While I agree with that in principle, I would question it in practice based upon my experiences with the system. It's a dangerous gray area wrought with lots of problems. This would only serve to further that cause, I fear.

Quote:
MF you said

If ANY information is shared with the police, it MUST be attainable by those being charged.

Totally disagree. She will likely share her place of residence with police...and if she truly is terrified...there's going to be a serious problem.....
Feel free to replace the word He for she

Fair enough. But if one is accused, there should not be an open season, should it? I've seen this law (and the scale in which it has been abused), on a first hand basis, I fully understand the quandary here. If it is just a level 4 offense, I would say NO! If it were a level 3,2 or 1 offense, I would say yes. But as it stands today, it isn't even close to what is happening out there.

Quote:
In my opinion, violence should not be a measure we reduce ourselves to....ever....
But who's perfect? lol

Its time. For some violence isn't violence at all, unless you want to get into the areas of psychological abuse. Then, we would have thought control. I agree. its ugly. But to enable one's sex to make baseless charges is just as wrong. Clearly, improvement is needed here.

Quote:
What contempt? Due process should be due process, shouldn't it?

And exemptions are made where necessary......


Scary stuff. Especially when exceptions come into play. There should be stiff penalties for those that abuse them. Currently, there is not.

Quote:
Holy crap ...smoked one and can't do this anymore tonight!
g'night

Good night, sweetie. You have always been a good woman with a good heart in my eyes.

Lynn4Peace (not verified)
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Quote:Quote: But get fucking

Quote:
Quote:
But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

I'm not so sure about that. I KNOW the statistics are skewed and biased. I don't trust them. That was one of my major points above

MF....Dead bodies are a stitistic that CANNOT be skewed....
Perhaps in war yes. Not in the general mainstream population though. That too is a fact. Look, in crim 101 students are taught about "hidden crime" and how this affects stats for programs laws etc. But one thing is consistant. You cannot hide the fact that there is a dead body. Eventually most are "found". And even when we calculate for possible deaths...ie....missing persons....we see that here too the majority of "missing persons" are women.

The facts are the facts.

Now I just want to point out something to ya MF.
You and I have talked about how the system has swung farrrr too much in favor of women - where it USED to be farrrr too much in favor of men.
You and I have talked about this and you know that I am not on board with it. I have said in the past that this is no more effective than when it was in favor of men. That to achieve true justice in to have equal balance.

So, you cannot keep denying the reality if you want people to get your point. Sometimes when I see you saying things like the stats of dead people are skewed and you don't trust them...I wonder if you are really serious about informing people of the inequalities for men in the justice system.

Facts are facts. Yes - as I have said before - stats for women "fleeing abuse" ARE skewed.....NO ARGUMENT HERE..............but some things you MUST concede to because denying them doesn't help your case.

One last point....
You mentioned psychological abuse. Evidently you have been only referring to physical abuse? I have not and do not separate the various methods to abuse a partner. There is physical, emotional, psychological, sexual and financial. All are forms of abuse used to control the other person. And all of them have an element of fear/terror..... Abuse is abuse. Any one of those reasons are reason enough for a man or woman to flee the relationship.

Thanks for the new quote button Pagan!!

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Quote:MF....Dead bodies are a

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MF....Dead bodies are a stitistic that CANNOT be skewed....
Perhaps in war yes. Not in the general mainstream population though. That too is a fact. Look, in crim 101 students are taught about "hidden crime" and how this affects stats for programs laws etc. But one thing is consistant. You cannot hide the fact that there is a dead body. Eventually most are "found". And even when we calculate for possible deaths...ie....missing persons....we see that here too the majority of "missing persons" are women.

Lynn. Respectfully, I think Rubo is in your ear. I can smell it. Please let me know if I am wrong. Either way, I still expect a full denial.

But, let me clarify further. I am talking about awareness within interpersonal relationships. Let's talk about Tomascz Matczak shall we? He was killed in cold blood with a knife after filing for restraining order against his girlfriend. She claimed self-defense and was let go after two days. There was no statistic here as it was "wriiten off" due to self defense, as if it had nothing to do with murder. There's more.

Here is what his family had to say about it.

Here's what Alan Dershowitz has to say about murder as it pertains to men vs. women. And it quotes him supporting my assertions:

Quote:
The most shocking finding of this study--which analyzed nearly ten thousand cases--is that wives murder their husbands far more frequently than press reports would suggest. To put the issue in context, women in general account for only about 10 percent of defendants charged with all murders. But for all spousal murders, women accounted for more than 40 percent of defendants. And "among black marital partners, wives were just about as likely to kill their husbands as husbands were to kill their wives." Not surprisingly, when it comes to parents who kill their children, mothers kill more often than fathers.

The real headline of this report, therefore, is that women almost as often as men do in the context of all family murders, though men much more often kill strangers--nearly always other men

Now, if you want to be semantic here, men do kill women more often, but not by much. Maybe you should call Alan Dershowitz and get in his ear for polluting my mind with these facts.

How fucking real would you like me to get here?
Am I "not real" for asking for fairness in reporting statistics? Am I "not serious" for pointing these facts and discrepancies out?

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Quote:Lynn. Respectfully, I

Quote:
Lynn. Respectfully, I think Rubo is in your ear. I can smell it. Please let me know if I am wrong. Either way, I still expect a full denial.

But, let me clarify further. I am talking about awareness within interpersonal relationships. Let's talk about Tomascz Matczak shall we? He was killed in cold blood with a knife after filing for restraining order against his girlfriend. She claimed self-defense and was let go after two days. There was no statistic here as it was "wriiten off" due to self defense, as it had nothing to do with murder. There's more.

Here is what his family had to say about it.

Here's what Alan Deschowitz has to say about murder as it pertains to men vs. women.

Now, if you want to be semantic here, men do kill women more often, but not by much.

How fucking real would you like me to get here?
Am I "not real" for asking for fairness in reporting statistics? Am I not serious for pointing these facts and discrepancies out?

You are dead wrong re Rubo MF.
Look - I don't depend on ANYONE to help me make a point. I like to think I am intelligent and articulate enough to make that happen on my own.
That being said - I see you still did not accept the facts re: Dead bodies being women. (To be clear - that is dead bodies as a result of domestic violence are overwhelmingly women) In your response you then state an isolated case. I KNOW where you are going...I am simply refusing to go there with you until you accept what is already fact.

The process for change is first to acknowledge what is REAL....then determine what needs to CHANGE....then pursue that goal from a realistic standpoint with true facts...

Do you not see that this is precisely HOW the laws have changed in favor of women in the first place?

Then you say this tidbit that's nothing short of bullshit fantast....

Quote:
Now, if you want to be semantic here, men do kill women more often, but not by much

Domestic Homicides

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner.16
Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men.17
Pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause18 , and evidence exists that a significant proportion of all female homicide victims are killed by their intimate partners.19
Domestic violence is a leading cause of death for women ages 15-44, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. It is a leading cause of death of pregnant women, mortality research shows. And African American and Native American women are at the highest risk of intimate partner homicide.

How clear do I need to be?

You cannot - WILL NOT - effect change by denying FACT MF.

What you need to do is capitalize on the stats for men that are there....WITHOUT DENYING OR NEGATING THE STATS FOR WOMEN. Because by doing do - you merely appear jaded. People who are jaded have a personal agenda....not a social justice one.
I like to think that you want to effect chaqnge that is balanced and fair. Not effect change to get even with women...which is sort of how you are coming across.

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Quote:Look - I don't depend

Quote:
Look - I don't depend on ANYONE to help me make a point. I like to think I am intelligent and articulate enough to make that happen on my own.

Just checking. This HAS happened to me before.

Quote:
In your response you then state an isolated case. I KNOW where you are going...I am simply refusing to go there with you until you accept what is already fact.

So, are you discounting the supporting evidence that Alan Dershowitz presented as well? I built on his example by showing how it happens. And on what SCALE it happens.
Let's delve a little further into this, shall we? Mary Winkler shot her husband, a preacher in the back, then claimed self-defense LONG after the fact and won. Let me ask you this. If this happens in the national spotlight, how often does it happen in the back alleys of the court rooms and those that control these "statistics"? A-G-A-I-N....Alan Dershowitz gives YOU a PRETTY clear idea. I notice that you pretty much skated over his comments. Why was that? It WAS supporting evidence from a professional who knows the truth. Perhaps you wish to view your statistics as being more reliable? I just want accuracy in reporting.

Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men.17
OK. You want to play this game? Chew on this. Greg Schmidt of the Seattle Police Department helped to create this system. He was accused himself of DV, and was acquitted a few YEARS later. He reported that from 1995-1999, King County records showed that women accounted for 44 percent of all murders in the Seattle area. He posted that fact at the bulletin board near the DV "stats". They were torn down immediately and was disciplined for it. I can give you his phone number for verification if you wish. I will post that article when I find it.

The point is that you will believe your "facts" despite what I show you to the contrary. STRONG evidence suggests otherwise. I just want some fairness in reporting, that's all. If you wish to go down this dark alley, I will take you with me. You will be shacked at what you will find.

What you take exception to is not my view, Lynn. I abhor all domestic violence and murder, be it women or men. What I would really like you to hear is that I also abhor the use of false statistics to further government agencies that govern these murders and these programs and their use of the murders of women FOR PROFIT, to inflame the masses and vilify men AND WOMEN. I would buy your statements if Mary Winkler was afforded the same sentiments. I would buy your statements if the woman in the Duke LaCrosse case was prosecuted for giving false testimony. A-G-A-I-N ... I ask you: If these cases that happen in the national spotlight are let go, what happens elsewhere? A-G-A-I-N ... Alan Dershowitz gives a pretty clear idea what is happening out there. Women are innocent in the majority of these cases and men aren't. Do you believe that?

Quote:
What you need to do is capitalize on the stats for men that are there....WITHOUT DENYING OR NEGATING THE STATS FOR WOMEN. Because by doing do - you merely appear jaded. People who are jaded have a personal agenda....not a social justice one.
I like to think that you want to effect change that is balanced and fair. Not effect change to get even with women...which is sort of how you are coming across.

In theory, I buy into that wholeheartedly. In practice, I have learned to dig in my heels when approached with false or misleading statistics. As I showed you above, I HAVE showed statistics for men and I can show you much more should you want to go down that dark alley. My cause is to raise awareness and that I do and do well. If some find that offensive, I apologize. But, my anchor is the truth. So far, the truth that has been presented in the media have been spoon fed by the agencies that benefit most from them. And that, My dear, is the truth.

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Lynn: Here is Greg Schmidt's

Lynn: Here is Greg Schmidt's story. I invite you to talk with him sometime. He is for correcting the system and works for http://washingtonsharedparenting.com .

Anyway, here is the link.... It's about a quarter way down the page. There's much more than what I posted below. I encourage you to read his story. Its a quick read.

Quote:
My action plan:

Get the message out, the criminal justice system is not ready to recognize all victims of family violence: there are women victims, children victims, elderly victims and absolutely men victims.

The system is biased no doubt. Within the system there are definitely police officers/detectives, judges, advocates and prosecutors who discriminate against males in family violence cases.

The system does have some heroic individuals within these groups that as individuals they do not discriminate, they are in the minority unfortunately.

I speak out on this issue within my department; I am not a popular guy amongst the command staff. I do have some very good support from the troops who believe the system is biased. They see what has happened to me and are nervous for obvious reasons about getting too involved.

I speak out at council meetings at the local level. I testify at the state level. I have been to D.C. and talked with Congress persons (one of them was an ex-prosecutor in Seattle who named names of scary people in their old office who discriminate). I have also done local radio talk shows and speak at local colleges.

I get inundated with phone calls from individuals who have had similar cases; I can't help them all but I do work with some of them to get them the resources they need.

I have worked family violence for over 10 years. I have conducted extensive research in this area.

Two very telling statistics I will share quickly:

• Between 1995 and 1999 in the city of Seattle 25 people have been killed by the hands of an intimate family partner; 14 women and 11 men, 56% women and 44% men. This had never been made public in this manner. When I made this information available to the public my department tore down the whole family violence victims display that displayed this information.

• Between 1996 and 1999 in the State of Washington counting all victims of family violence homicides, 274 people have been killed; 171 females and 103 males, 62.4% females and 37.6% males.
This information is available from the Washington State Association of Sheriff's and Police Chiefs; nobody had ever asked for it before.

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Quote:What you need to do is

Quote:
What you need to do is capitalize on the stats for men that are there....WITHOUT DENYING OR NEGATING THE STATS FOR WOMEN. Because by doing do - you merely appear jaded. People who are jaded have a personal agenda....not a social justice one.
I like to think that you want to effect change that is balanced and fair. Not effect change to get even with women...which is sort of how you are coming across.

How do you suggest these men support their case without negating the stats for women? Just a question here. Some might even view it as being anti-woman to begin with. Especially on a University Campus.

http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-09-29-0025.html

Day 3 For 2 Dads On A Crane

Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 02:19 PM

By Donna Willis
E-mail | Biography

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- It's the third day for two fathers who are protesting for the rights of fathers.

Paul Fischer, who is an Ohio father dressed like Superman, and Donald Tenn, a California father who was wearing a Spiderman suit, were protesting for the rights of dads who are in custody disputes with ex-spouses.

NBC 4's Paul Stelzer reported from the scene Monday on the Ohio State campus.

The men were up on the large crane with a banner that reads, "Stop the War on Fatherhood" and "Fathers 4 Justice."

The two first started a stir Saturday morning when police and OSU fans spotted them on the crane.

PREVIOUS STORY
Sept. 29: Crane Perchers Look For Dads' Rights

"We have supplies. We brought supplies up with us -- enough for an extended stay, Tenn said. "We're going to stay up here until our demands are met."

Fischer and Tenn want their respective governors, Ted Strickland and Arnold Schwarzenegger, to investigate what two men call corruption in the family courts.

"Specifically, why the courts are not prosecuting perjury for false accusations," Tenn said.

Tenn said fathers like him don't get a fair shake in child-custody disputes with their ex-wives.

After flying their banner over the weekend, Monday was the first day their spot on top of the crane affected the construction work on OSU's new student academic-services building.

When asked if the men felt it was OK to get in the way of the construction, Terry Kee, team captain for Fathers 4 Justice said, "Sometimes, civil disobedience in a peaceful manner is what it takes to open the eyes of America."

The construction manager said his workers don't need the crane right now because they have plenty of other work to do at the site.

Kee told the construction company the fathers would not get in the way of the crane operator. Due to safety and other concerns, though, the company did not send anyone on to the crane.

Stelzer also talked with Keith Dailey, a spokesperson for Strickland, said the governor has no plans to investigate the family court system in Ohio.

OSU campus police continued to monitor the situation, but the university had no official comment.

Stay tuned to NBC 4 and refresh nbc4i.com for more information on this developing story.

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Now, reverse the sexes and

Now, reverse the sexes and tell me what the result would be.

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Anyone remember Susan Smith?

Anyone remember Susan Smith?

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Julia - "Well then, I ought to suit you, dear. I'm corrupt to the bones." -- "1984" Part II Chapter 2

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California Mother's Triple

California Mother's Triple Murders Show
Cost of Ignoring Female Abusers

It is a well-known story--a violent husband abuses his wife and others, the wife stays with him out of fear or shame, and in the end the husband kills the wife, or the children, or both. We shake our heads and say "If only we could have protected her."

Such is the scenario of the Socorro Caro triple murders, except that this time the genders are reversed. The Southern California case is an extreme example of the price children, fathers, and our society as a whole sometimes pay for our refusal to acknowledge female domestic violence.

Socorro Caro, according to testimony by several witnesses, including her husband Dr. Xavier Caro, had violently attacked her husband or others on eight occasions prior to the night of November 22, 1999, when she shot and killed three of her four sons. In these previous incidents Ms. Caro had used weapons and the element of surprise to her advantage, and had caused several injuries, including serious eye damage to her husband

Why didn't Dr. Caro leave her? Why didn't he tell anybody what was being done to him? ...............................


<!--break-->

Have a read

Are female child abuse and domestic violence rare? Unfortunately not. According to the US Department of Justice, 70% of confirmed cases of child abuse and 65% of parental murders of children are committed by mothers.

, at the end of the article it sums it up very well

Thus Xavier Caro was trapped--not just by his violent wife, but by a society that refuses to acknowledge what voluminous research and simple common sense shows--domestic violence is not a male affliction but a human one.

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Here are some stats for 2002

Here are some stats for 2002 from the U.S. Department of Justice's website


Child Abuse and Victimization

The majority of child victims were maltreated by a parent acting alone. Approximately two-fifths (40.3 percent) of child victims were maltreated by their mother; 19.1 percent were maltreated by their father; 18 percent were abused by their mother and father; and 13 percent were victimized by a non-parent. (Ibid.)

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I've been off a few days,

I've been off a few days, dealing with a major vehicle breakdown far from home. Such fun.

I know the people and politics of this article well. As co-founder of the now-defunct Oregon Men's Association, and living in Portland, I've been head-to-head Chiquita and her ilk many times.

The problem presented is far, far larger than who can call up the most heartbreaking story or the best study. That's basically all bullshit.

What the people from Multnomah have crafted is a program where a woman can present herself to them with her children and they can be taken in, provided with every public service imaginable, and dad is expected to not only pay for it, but be blamed for every accusation she can think of. And with little hope of ever clearing his name. The DA's office, the police, all the social services and even sitting judges are part of that committee. Anything dad has to say is irrelevant. I was there when Rod Underhill from the DA's office proudly announced they had just got their first conviction without any "participation" from the "victim."

This is 1984 gone completely amok. There is no accountability whatsoever. A small group of people seized all power in that area, all with the mindset that ALL women and children are "in clear and present danger" from the men in their lives. Facts mean nothing, truth even less than nothing.

This was a long time coming,more later.

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It's gotten that bad. Some

It's gotten that bad.

Some may question my approach. I question what is in practice today. Multnomah County hides behind "Blaming the Victim" also, just like in Seattle. We are witnessing this process, or lack thereof, coming full circle. Sometimes, I have to be the jerk to get the word out. I make no apologies for this. Because my message gets lost when I meet others half way. Things will have to improve a lot before I tone down about this. Facts do mean nothing in these courts. Worse yet, those who perjure themselves are never prosecuted. When instances like the Duke LaCrosse team happens, or Mary Winkler, Tomasz Matzcak, and Susan Smith happen as blatantly as they do, it simply highlights that there is no excuse for domestic violence, unless you are a woman.

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Oh for fuck sake. I give

Oh for fuck sake.

I give up.

MF - you went on a tangent...and I refused to read the rest of your reply because it has no accountability. Not in the fucking least - and I cannot help your cause - if you are unable to promote ity in a clean fashion.

Plus...trying to overwhelm me with questions and in-your-face comments is fucking futine...since....I was on your side to begin with.

But aparently you and the rest here prefer to promote this from a hatefilled position and I'm not going to be on board with that sorry....

It was interesting while it lasted.
Lynn

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Lynn4Peace wrote: Oh for

Lynn4Peace wrote:

Oh for fuck sake.

I give up.

MF - you went on a tangent...and I refused to read the rest of your reply because it has no accountability. Not in the fucking least - and I cannot help your cause - if you are unable to promote ity in a clean fashion.

Plus...trying to overwhelm me with questions and in-your-face comments is fucking futine...since....I was on your side to begin with.

But aparently you and the rest here prefer to promote this from a hatefilled position and I'm not going to be on board with that sorry....

It was interesting while it lasted.
Lynn


I beg to differ Lynn, this is no tangent this is the reality of the DV industry. The "Hate" Lynn is with the industry that promotes incarceration on nothing but accusation with no evidence and complete disregard for the rule of law.

Again Lynn who's promoting "hate", I see it being promoted as being the clear gender bias of it's only "Men" that are the aggressors and "Women" are the only victims. If you can only come into it from one side and refuse to discuss points made from the other side than so be it, frankly I expected more from you. Sad

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I'm so sorry if you've become

I'm so sorry if you've become overwhelmed here, Lynn. But what I write is true, especially about Greg Schmidt and what he wrote in direct contradiction to your beliefs on the scale of this problem. Pointing that out does not put me on a tangent. How do you WISH that I handle this?

I'm out well over $300,000 due to my case. And that's minuscule when compared to father's that have lost their children, house, job, everything, and forced to live underground. It is neatly pushed into that corner of "Oh, well, such is life" by the system.

I truly believe that you have no idea how widespread this problem is and for how long it's been going on. I certainly had no idea prior to my experiences. Meeting you halfway might placate you, but it doesn't serve the greater purpose of educating others. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, girl. And I'm carrying the torch of those who have been defeated before me. I see nothing wrong with what I've exposed here.

I, too, expected more, but will expect less from this point forward. I should understand more, I guess, that to TRULY understand the problem, one must walk a mile in another's shoes. This is a very dark subject matter that takes real tenacity to understand completely. Trust me. I know.

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Lynn this is a highly

Lynn this is a highly emotionally charged subject, due to there is a huge segment of the population who's lives have been destroyed. Their families have been destroyed, the means of earning an income has been taken away and they're either in jail, living underground or on the run. This problem is neither male nor female, the machine is destroying families and it cares not who it destroys. The people I've seen that have become activists usually start out as a "Men's" or "Women's" rights, but once they actually dig into the core of the problem they switch to be parental or family rights activist because of what they learn.

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Both of you have been

Both of you have been preaching to the choir. (That's the last time I bring that to your attention)

Niether of you have interpreted anything I have said - in it's proper context. Each and every sentence has been attacked - despite the fact that I have supported your "casue" from the get-go.

I'm going to have to conclude that it's because I'm female and you need someone to take it out on...or you suspect I have some hidden agenda.

MF - for you to say that you "truly believe I have no idea" is so completly offside - considering violence against men has been my sole focus for the past 3 fucking years.

Anyway - you 2 continue to attack the wrong person - and continue to promote your cause the way you have been....and you will continuie to get the same responses...and resistance from those who likely would support you - if it were not for the way in which you present.
As I have already said - you are alienating yourselves from the support you could have...with you attacks.

If you always do what you've always done....
You'll always get what you've always got.

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Sounds like Lynn is getting

Sounds like Lynn is getting polarized here. Too bad it had to become a man-woman thing. What a waste.

I started in '92 by forming a group with a few other pissed-off dads. That's when I got involved with the Multnomah County Domestic Violence Steering Committee and made the first official complaint against the Dishonorable Stephen Herrell, a nationally prominent judge who was a member. Of course the complaint to the appropriate state disciplinary body went nowhere.

The stories I could tell ... but what good would it do? I'm completely burned out on the whole subject after being in the trenches for 15 years.

As with all things of this nature, I did as Ross said -- first angry at all women, then discovered the noncustodial moms getting screwed just as hard as the dads. Along the way I became the author of Oregon's "Friendly Parent Law" from 1997. That and $3 will get you a latte at your nearest Starbucks.

I'm really not sure what was worse, the hostility of the state and the DV machine, or the apathy and lack of support of the parents who refused to do anything but whine. Both my kids are around 30 and the state is still riding me for a ridiculous and fictitious child support order. The worst of that is of all the money extorted from me in the name of our children, neither has seen a dime of it, even when they were refugees from Katrina.

What a waste.

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Julia - "Well then, I ought to suit you, dear. I'm corrupt to the bones." -- "1984" Part II Chapter 2

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To be clear I did not "become

To be clear I did not "become polarized" - that's merely another jab...at someone on the same page. (nohting new in this thread) Evidently Bro - you have not read any other posts I have made on this thread... (insert rolly-eyes here)Or you would realize that I am not polarized...not making this a man vs. woman gig...I WAS saying...CAPITALIZE on what women have done so that men can attain EQUALITY under the fucking law.
But alas....y'all need to be so fucking superior...that you would push a woman who has been active in this area for YEARS on behalf of men....away.

Good job boys!

Furthermore - I did not make it a "man-woman" thing...this is something I was trying to steer you people away from. But every fucking reply is - Oh ya...well look..women abuse kids...women beat men...women this and women that..... NONE OF WHICH WAS EVER DENIED BY ME. (more rolly-eyes)

But again, if you need to point fingers - place blame - undermine a supporter so you can feel superior - by all means have at er.
I'm out.

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Lynn what you have here is a

Lynn what you have here is a couple of people who's lives have been destroyed by the Machine of the State. Myself, I'm lucky enough to not have been caught up in it but I've seen what it has done to them and a number of others. So in the process of venting here you are seeing the effects of what it has personally done to them. They're not blaming nor pointing fingers at you or "Women" in general, they are pointing their fingers at the ones responsible, the State. Like I said before this is a very emotional topic, that reason being their lives personally have been destroyed by it.

BTW - Let me go sniffing around for a "rolling eyes" smiley Eye-wink

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Mysandrist Fool
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Lynn. Let's get real and go

Lynn. Let's get real and go back to your first post and see who is guilty of what here. Remember, all I did was publish a story about a long overdue illegal process that needed reform.

This is/was your INITIAL reaction.

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I'm going to dissent and take you both on here.

Get fucking real guys.
Yup...that's what I said. Get real.

Though I support the notion that statements relating to the alleged CRIME be disclosed...........that's where my support ends.
It's dispicable to think that the advocates would be forced to cough up anymore than that. Period.

I disputed that. I'm NOT sorry for doing so. You made some false assumptions right away and it wasn't justified in my opinion. Especially the tone of that post. What did I do to make you feel that way? If you are a REAL advocate for these laws, please tell me how it's possible for the rampant false accusations that are made and used in today's arena.? It's the FACT that these false accusers don't have to face those whom they accuse. They are also COACHED by these "advocates" on what to say and how to do it behind the secrecy of their encampments. Oh, would I love to be a fly on THAT wall! How is that possible? The article explains why. We know why. YOU know why. And you know why they don't face perjury charges either. BECAUSE of these laws, they are made to be eternal "VICTIMS" and will always be ETERNAL victims until these laws are changed. Otherwise, you actually support and think, (and actually stated that),

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"It's despicable to think that the advocates would be forced to cough up anymore than that. Period."
Therein the dilemma exists. You took your stance, unjustifiably so, in my mind, with a condescending aggressive tone. How would you expect me to react after experiencing the wrath of the system firsthand, then approached like that by you?

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I have always been an advocate for men when it comes to violence against them by women. I am the crazy bitch screaming HEY...LOOK...IT HAPPENS TO MEN TOO....CUT THE SHIT AND GENDER BIAS! I have advocated for equal services for men - equal rights for fathers etc.

But get fucking real.
FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

Then act like one. And who said you were a crazy bitch? I personally like you, but I'm left confused as to just where THAT comment came from. I can't see your point about the gender bias as I am also an advocate for women against CPS as well. Would you like to go down that dark path and read some of those e-mails as well?

You also state in your most recent post that:

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Furthermore - I did not make it a "man-woman" thing
yet state incorrectly:
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FACT - MORE WOMEN ARE MURDERED AS A RESULT OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THAN MEN

We disputed that, yet you dug in your heels and IGNORED the body of evidence that suggested to the contrary. I ask you, "Who's making this a man vs. woman thing" by producing false allegations concerning male vs. female murder?
You brought it up with an aggressive tone to boot. Are you suggesting that we should take that and not respond? Again, YOU brought it up. Then you state condescendingly:
Quote:
HEY...LOOK...IT HAPPENS TO MEN TOO....CUT THE SHIT AND GENDER BIAS! I
May I suggest you do the same? (Sarcasm)

All I did here was publish an article that I've been waiting for years to come out. It cut right to the crux of the problem. And you know it.

I have just published an article that shows that less than 1 in 10 of women in shelters has actually been a real victim of domestic violence.

You yourself, have told us of the amount of homeless women in these shelters. So, if that is the case, why is the other 90% allowed to hide behind their possible false accusations? Does that make me gender -biased? I'd certainly like to get to the bottom of this, wouldn't you?

You, m'dear, are shooting the messenger.

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I did not mean "polarize" in

I did not mean "polarize" in the way you took it.

I am not aware that I contributed to making any of this "a man-woman thing" either, or to anything else which pissed you off here.

I am far too seasoned and burned out to have any need to slam anyone on this subject unless they really needed it ... and what I've read from your posts doesn't qualify for that.

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Winston - "I hate purity. I hate goodness. I don't want any virtue to exist anywhere. I want everyone to be corrupt to the bones."
Julia - "Well then, I ought to suit you, dear. I'm corrupt to the bones." -- "1984" Part II Chapter 2

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