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We the Collective (Update 1)

In our Declaration of Independence the word "we" appears ten times with the most famous line using it is:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

What is the definition of we: First-person, plural personal pronoun.

What is the definition of plural: adj, 1. Composed of more than one member, set, or kind. 2. Grammatical form that designates more than one of the things specified.

In the preamble of our Constitution it has this neat little saying that starts with the word "We":

("We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.")

When we say, "We the People", that is not saying, I the person or the individual. It is saying we as in us, or as in team, or even one could say as a collective.

Now we need to now define the word collective: a group of people who share or are motivated by at least one common issue or interest, or work together on a specific project(s) to achieve a common objective.

So by using the word "we" throughout our Declaration of Independence and in the preamble of our Constitution shows that our founding fathers of this country were a "collective". They were a smaller collective of individuals working on the behalf of the overall collective of the thirteen colonies to free them from the tyranny of the British Monarchy. Each colony themselves were representative of their very own collectives. So I guess being a collective is not a bad thing.

Problems happen though when people try to conflate "collective" with the terms for the Socialistic or Communistic political economic regimes that have gone bad, like the old Soviet style. For a better term, use Stalinism, which isn't a collective at all but a extreme conservative authoritarian political dictatorship that gives no power to the people or collective economically or politically. It is the same style that was exported to countries like Cuba, North Korea and Viet Nam and a similar style practiced by mainland China. Being a collective means its being democratic. The old Soviet Union and Communist China aren't collectives but authoritarian dictatorships. True Socialism is a system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., equally by the community as a whole. We have a few farmers coops in the U.S. who operate in this way in defense against the factory farms.

There is some partially or hybrid Socialist States that work very well today. A good example is Norway, highest taxes in the world, ranges from 43 to 68 percent, with about 50 percent rate on the middle class. They provide for all social issues for free and have the most happy people in the world IAW a few recent surveys. Norway has what you would call a mixed economy. It contains both private-owned and state-owned enterprises and combines elements of capitalism and socialism. It is a mix of market economy and planned economy characteristics. It provides for free the two main pillars of happiness, health and education. People can go to college for free right up to the Doctorate level. While attending school the government pays you a salary. Beside the free health care, you also get paid for up to 6 months of either maternity or paternity leave. Their work week only averages 37 hours and everybody gets 6 weeks paid vacation.

Even though the people of Norway are both heavy drinkers and smokers, according to The CIA World Fact book for 2007, they have the 14th longest life expectancy and 2009 they are 23rd. The United States was 29th in 2007 and 49th on the list in 2009. For infant mortality rates per 1000 live births, using The CIA World Fact Book for 2007, Norway rates as the 205th out of 221 and in 2009 rates 214th out of 224 countries. The United States comes in as 180th out of 221 in 2007 and 180th out of 224 in 2009. Remember the higher number the better on this one.

So the more I see about the happy people of Socialist Norway, and it being considered a collective may not be such a bad thing.

Maybe We of the Collective of the United States, which as James Madison describes in Federalist 10 as a Representative Democracy, should pay a little more attention to how the collective of Norway does things. Especially on Health care and Education....

Iratus-aves-hominis

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Mysandrist Fool's picture

Is this just a hit-n-run job from Curtis? I would expect a higher level of debate here, rather than just the standard stirring up the natives approach.

 

C'mon, Curtis. I expected more here...

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Boanerges's picture

From Curtis? Really?

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Mysandrist Fool's picture

Yup. Curtis. Now known as a party hack as much of what he was bitching about bush, obama is now doing. Overspending, signing statements, Gitmo, wiretapping. He's bought into all of it, DESPITE his previous negativity towards bush. He has shown why his is not a two way street. It's simply known as "Party Hack Street" now.

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Boanerges's picture

I'm going to skip over the whole "collective" propaganda as it's just an attempt to justify overtaxing some to hand to others. The only real accomplishment being to buy votes for the politicians.

On the subject of how great Norway is compared to the United States, a few things should be noted.

Comparing Norway to the United States isn't exactly apples to apples from the very start because of population. Norway is equivalent to South Carolina in population (4.6 Million), Not the United States (307 Million) socialism, collectivism, communes, Coops, have all been proven to work better and be more effective in smaller groups. Think about it, the collective that is your family generally works well. Everyone has a mutual respect for each other and generally a give and take exists. (and a dictaor named Dad or Mom usually controls everthing regardless of all that) So disputes are handled promptly and no one person is allowed to just be lazy or become greedy and take more than their part.

Let's assume though, that by following Norway's example we could exactly emulate them with the same results. We'll assume we are middle class and I will just use 2009 figures from the factbook to make it simple and a little less wordy.

So to start with I would have to give away HALF my earnings for nearly my entire working years, for the "privilege" of the following.

  1. Almost two more years of life. That's right. That is the difference between Norway and the United States. 1.84 years.
  2. More National Debt. Norway debt is 7.3% higher as a percentage of GDP than ours. This tells us that they aren't able to pay for all these wonderful government services, even though they are a petroleum exporting country!
  3. You will get a better chance of dying. Oh yea! Sign me UP! But wait didn't we say the had a longer life expectancy and a lower infant mortality rate? Yes we did, but if you look at the actual death rate for 2009 Norway is 9.29 per 1000 and USA is 8.38 deaths per 1000. And that is despite the fact that we have more women drivers in SUVS than they do!

So I think I will skip the paying lots more money we don't have to obtain a better chance of dying.

 

 

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

AstuteObserver's picture

The falacy resides in the assumption or injection of "collective" to redefine the term "We the People".  Nice try but that simply doesn't float as a position to argue from.  Once again the cliche' regarding assumptions - ASS U ME. 

Nice attempt but a huge stretch!

 

 

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Mysandrist Fool's picture

When "We the people" turns into "Us, the government, who will decide
for you people, irregardless of the original rules set forth, something
is clearly wrong. When "We the people", decalres war on Iraq, without
congressional approval, per those same rules, there are issues as well.

 

Point
is, both parties decide for themselves, as individuals, what "We the
people" actually means, irregardless of the "piece of paper".

 

We the people, have had enough of this.

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Pagan's picture

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state  legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions."

"With respect to the two words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

-- James Madison
Father of the Constitution

 

[O]ur tenet ever was, and, indeed, it is almost the only landmark which now divides the federalists from the republicans, that Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were to those specifically enumerated; and that, as it was never meant they should raise money for purposes which the enumeration did not place under their action; consequently, that the specification of powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money.

-- Thomas Jefferson
Author of the Declaration of Independence

 

Kinda kills the Socialist spin of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution wouldn't you say?  Eye-wink

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Iratus-aves-hominis's picture

Ross,

You bit on it again.  Irony.....This post was not so much about its content as much as it was to your reactions of the word, "collective".  Your use of it has always amused me so I could not resist. Smiling

To quote a President, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." Laughing out loud

Curtis

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Pagan's picture

And what did  I bite on?  Your "spin" on what the Constitution is? Puzzled

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Boanerges's picture

Whaaatt??? A person has a better chance of dying in Norway than here? Weeellllll, that post wasn't really about the content anyway it was.........................

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Iratus-aves-hominis's picture

The spin was on your use of the word collective.   Hence the irony.  The rest was only a distraction.  Eye-wink

Re: We the Collective (Update 1)

Mysandrist Fool's picture

So, does that mean we should take what you post as distractive irony to be bit on?

 

How quaint. Joke's on yourself, fool. Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing